All,
How does railroad seniority work? In the airline industry, seniority is company specific, so changing companies means a move to the very bottom. Is this true with the railroads? Is there a national seniority list?
Thanks,
IC EC
In general Seniority Rosters are Company, Craft and Division specific. These tend to be maintained when various Fallen Flag Lines have been merged into one of todays carriers, however there are no hard and fast rules.
When CSX centrailized their Dispatchers in Jacksonville. A agreement was negotiated with all the then existing Dispatching offices (approximately 25 different offices on the various carriers with their own seniority rosters) to create a single CSX Dispatcher's Seniority Roster in Jacksonville. With the creation of the consolidated Seniority Roster every dispatchers existing seniority date was dovetailed into the consolidated roster (I don't know what procedure was utilized to resolve where two people had the same original seniority date).
When CSX decided to de-centrailize their dispatching offices, all members of the Consolidated Seniority Roster were given the opportunity to bid, in seniority order, to the office of their choice and thereby created a new seniority roster for that office. Dispatchers hired and assigned to a office after its creation maintains seniority on that roster only. Dispatchers with Jacksonville Consolidated Seniority have the rights to bid to vacancies in other offiices with that bid ranking ahead of the carrier hiring someone to fill the vacancy; dispatchers that were hired to a specific office after the de-centralization do not have this ability.
In my specific case, I was hired onto B&O's St. Louis Division Telegraphers Roster, I then transfered to the B&O's Pittsburgh Division Telegraphers Roster and established a new seniority date, shortly thereafter I transfered to B&O's Akron Division Telegraphers Roster. While on the Akron Division Telegraphers Roster I became qualified and established a seniority date on the Akron-Chicago Division Train Dispatchers Roster. Shortly thereafter I was promoted to official capacity by the B&O where I continued to work for 20 years until I was forced into a situation where I had to exercise my Dispatcher or Telegrapher seniority or leave the employment of the company. To exercise my Dispathers Seniority I had to relocate to Jacksonville (the Telegraphers Seniority had very few jobs available and all those were threatened with elimination by advancing technology).
Every craft has their own Seniority Rules - some make sense - some don't (at least not when viewed from afar).
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Set yer' Captain Midnight Magic Decoder Ring to B-U-M-P
mudchicken Set yer' Captain Midnight Magic Decoder Ring to B-U-M-P
Johnny
It's why I went into management. No desire to start as a new man... again...
Randy
BaltADC
"To exercise my Dispathers Seniority I had to relocate to Jacksonville"
When the company required you to move, did they pay all of your relocation costs? My large employer paid my reloction costs on eight occasions, but I usually had other expenses that were not covered, so I was out some money for each move. It was not much; I figured it goes with the territory.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
DeggestyAnd, sometimes, that is like a nice little experiment in physics--you have several metal balls in a row, each one suspended on a string: pull the ball at one end away from the rest, let it drop against the next ball, and the ball at the far end swings out as each is bumped in turn.
I suggest we all chip a dollar or so and buy Bucky one of those. Then he can spend his time trying to change the laws of physics to suit his definition.
Norm
Norm48327 Deggesty And, sometimes, that is like a nice little experiment in physics--you have several metal balls in a row, each one suspended on a string: pull the ball at one end away from the rest, let it drop against the next ball, and the ball at the far end swings out as each is bumped in turn. I suggest we all chip a dollar or so and buy Bucky one of those. Then he can spend his time trying to change the laws of physics to suit his definition.
Deggesty And, sometimes, that is like a nice little experiment in physics--you have several metal balls in a row, each one suspended on a string: pull the ball at one end away from the rest, let it drop against the next ball, and the ball at the far end swings out as each is bumped in turn.
As I recall, the exhibit that I used had an odd number of balls. If you lifted two or more balls and let them fall, the same number of balls would shoot away from the other end--but I do not recall the result if more than half of the balls were lifted and then released; I'm sure we tried that, back in '55-'56. I seriously doubt that there has been any change in the result of such an experiment in the years since.
JPS1 BaltADC "To exercise my Dispathers Seniority I had to relocate to Jacksonville" When the company required you to move, did they pay all of your relocation costs? My large employer paid my reloction costs on eight occasions, but I usually had other expenses that were not covered, so I was out some money for each move. It was not much; I figured it goes with the territory.
The company did not require me to relocate. My desire to retain an employment relationship with the company did. I moved on my nickle.
If you were bumped, and then bumped someone else, your moving expenses were paid?
But if you moved to a vacancy (in the same craft), your expenses were paid?
Edited to correct the thought (change "not paid" to "paid")
Johnny, in an operating craft such as mine was, you worked in "seniority districts"; all bumping and such was within that district, and moving would not be involved. I know that some of the folks that are working where I used to moved from other parts of the system. I think they had to start at the bottom of our seniority list. But I also suspect that the railroad gave them some sort of deal to move here (expenses, perhaps).Another thing that happened was that when railroads or seniority districts were combined, there were agreements negotiated to determine how seniority would be handled. Sometimes it was "dovetailed", and original seniority dates would apply. In my case, when we merged the Chicago operations of CNW and UP, Proviso employees' seniority would come above anyone from Yard Center when working in Proviso, but would be below anyone from Yard Center when working in Yard Center. Anyone hired after the merger would come below everybody else in either yard. I know that CGW employees in Chicago, road and yard, were placed at the bottom of the Galena Division seniority roster as of the 1968 date of that merger (by the time I left, none of those guys were left).
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
When it comes to merging seniority rosters, virtually every and all forms of 'equity' that can be concieved by man or machine have been implemented at one craft merger or another. Just because a particular procedure was used in merging A & B doen't mean that that prodcedure will provide suitable 'equity' in megring C & D.
The intent of these agreements is not to disadvantage any of the negotiating partys. Doesn't mean that some aren't disadvantaged, it just mean that is not the intent of the agreement. The agreements negotiated apply ONLY to the party's involved in the negotiations. ie. Because Train Dispatchers do things one way doesn't not mean that Signal Maintainers will do things the same way - they both exist under different labor agreements that are germaine to the individual crafts.
CShaveRR Johnny, in an operating craft such as mine was, you worked in "seniority districts"; all bumping and such was within that district, and moving would not be involved. I know that some of the folks that are working where I used to moved from other parts of the system. I think they had to start at the bottom of our seniority list. But I also suspect that the railroad gave them some sort of deal to move here (expenses, perhaps).Another thing that happened was that when railroads or seniority districts were combined, there were agreements negotiated to determine how seniority would be handled. Sometimes it was "dovetailed", and original seniority dates would apply. In my case, when we merged the Chicago operations of CNW and UP, Proviso employees' seniority would come above anyone from Yard Center when working in Proviso, but would be below anyone from Yard Center when working in Yard Center. Anyone hired after the merger would come below everybody else in either yard. I know that CGW employees in Chicago, road and yard, were placed at the bottom of the Galena Division seniority roster as of the 1968 date of that merger (by the time I left, none of those guys were left).
I just looked. I'm on 21 different seniority rosters. (Some are trainmen's rosters as I still retain that seniority although it is doubtful I will ever need to exercise it. If I get set back now, the railroad will really be in trouble.) It represents the consolidations over the years. My date is the same on all of them. (My engineman's date is not the same as my trainmen's date. My TM date is the same on all TM rosters, my EM date the same on all of EM rosters.) What Carl was talking about, known as "prior rights", is seen on the different rosters. A is senior to B on one, B senior to A on another. It probably won't be too many years when those people who this still applies to will all be retired. I know all the CGW guys are gone, but there is still a CGW switchmen's roster listed.
As a result of these larger combined districts, it's causing a lot of misery for those at the bottom especially for engineers. They've been setting back up engineers, some of who were set back to conductors for a few years. Some have gone from being in a sweet spot as a trainmen to the bottom of the engineer's list. They go in theory where their seniority allows but the reality is really being forced to those jobs no one else wants. Which is usually at outlying points 100 or more miles from home and low paying compared to what they held has conductors.
Jeff
It can really get fun where you have multiple rosters (carriers) that protect a specific service.
The GM Plant at Parma, Ohio, back in the day, was switched by both NYC and B&O. The agreement had one carrier working the jobs for 6 months and then the other carrier worked the jobs for 6 months.
At a point in time, Western Maryland RR freight was being handled in B&O trains between Connellsville, PA, Cumberland, MD, Cherry Run, WV and Baltimore, MD. In company computer systems car counts were maintained for this 'blended' traffic. The T&E jobs were assigned and worked on a percentage basis that corresponded to the calculated percentage of WM traffic over prior periods of time. So if you had 20 Pool Turns in the Connellsville-Cumberland pool and WM traffic was 25% of the total blended traffic, then WM employees of the appropriate craft were entitled to work 25% of the available turns - that being said - Engineers and Conductors did not necessarily work common turns ie. Having a WM Engineer and a B&O Conductor or vice versa was not unusual. The percentages would change over time, nominally on a monthly basis.
Carl, I was speaking of moving expenses when moving from one town to another. I don't remember just what year it was (I think I was in the 11th grade), but the agent in my home town moved to the station 6.6 miles away (I do not know if he was bumped or moved to a vacancy; his new station was in a larger town). He may not have had moving expenses. When I was in college, he moved to another town, on the same line, that was 117.6 miles from his previous station; he surely had moving expenses then.
Incidentally, I was able to stop and see him twice when I was hitchhiking home from college.
DeggestyCarl, I was speaking of moving expenses when moving from one town to another. I don't remember just what year it was (I think I was in the 11th grade), but the agent in my home town moved to the station 6.6 miles away (I do not know if he was bumped or moved to a vacancy; his new station was in a larger town). He may not have had moving expenses. When I was in college, he moved to another town, on the same line, that was 117.6 miles from his previous stqation; he surely had moving expenses then. Incidentally, I was able to stop and see him twice when I was hitchhiking home from college.
Don't know the specific agreement he would have been working under.
However, in the time frame you are talking about, I doubt that company would have been required to compensate anyone for moving more that a token amount and that would, most likely, have been if the company speciffically transfered the individual. If he made the move on his bumping rights any and all moving expenses would most likely be on the individual. Individual agreements may vary.
Back when my father was 'climging the ladder' through the company in the 40's-50's-60's he would always rent our residence, the company would, if necessary, buy out any unused term on the rental agreement. They would not offer any assistance in selling one home to be able to purchase another. In the 80's and 90's with my former employer that policy changed and the company would buy a transferee's home at market price. In the 21st century that policy changed again and flat sum payments were offered, it was the employee's responsibility to deal with the sale/purchase of residences on their own time and money.
So, "it's complicated" would be an understatement...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Wow! I had no idea. So what's the typical career progression of a railroad employee?
IC ECWow! I had no idea. So what's the typical career progression of a railroad employee?
There is nothing that is truly typical. It depends upon where and as what you hired out. What you're education is, what you're continuing education aims were, what you're personal intersts were, what kinds of opportunities presented themselves as you progress through you're career, what kinds of opportunities thay you turned down for whatever you're reasons were, who if anyone was a 'sponsor' for your career and how they may have faired in the ever going corporate politics.
Especially in today's age it is the rare individual that hires out and stays in the same craft from hire date to retire date.
As was said about Seniority - It's complicated and that is the simple part of career paths.
I don't blame you, Randy Stahl, sounds like a lot of commotion today. More simplified when Dad worked for Frisco, just one set of seniority. Mary Stahl
Had no idea this was so complicated today with all the mergers and takeovers. Simple for Dad, he'd get bumped from yard office back to freight house office and then bid on job at yard office when one opened up again. He had enough seniority that he was never out the door except during the big Depression, lost out for a year. Mom was able to hang on at General Office but was bumped back from keypunch operator to file clerk. By the time Dad died, he was the top seniority guy in the office, all the older ones had retired. But he died before Frisco was taken over by BN so never lived to see that mess. Most of the guys he worked with including my grandfather had enough seniority to keep their jobs, but younger guys did go out the door.
I would have thought that those on the lower end of the seniority list would relocate to fill other vacancies in their craft under New York Dock rules.
CSSHEGEWISCHI would have thought that those on the lower end of the seniority list would relocate to fill other vacancies in their craft under New York Dock rules.
Just like anything else, there are rules that apply in New York Dock Protections, and securing that wage protection is not easy as the company will fight against it every step of the way. New York Dock basically only covers a wage situation ie. guarantees that wages earned at the new location will be equal to wages earned at the old location. Protection will last for 5 years maximum. When it comes to actual application of NYD rules, you must bid to the highest rated job your seniority entitles you to, you must protect all overtime that is offered - if you don't do these things, then the monetary amount of the protection is reduced by the monetary amount of your decisions. Just like seniority, NYD is complicated.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.