car wheel noise

[Anonymous]

When watching a CSX TOFC today,i noticed that most cars had a singing noise(whine) then would come one clacking and squealing.Is this bad bearings?dangerous down the line? Do the roads have a way to catch bearing failures Etc. before they fail? This unit was probably near 50 mph and flags flying.

[Anonymous]

The Clacking you heard, was probably what most refer to as a thumping.

This occurs when there are small flat spots on the wheel, and as the wheel turns the flat spot hits the head of the rail and you get a thumping sound.

Flat spots are generally caused when brakes are applied and the equipment is moved. The wheels still grind against the rail and thus you end up with flat spots.

Flat spots generally get worse if they aren't looked after and if you get a big enough flat spot it can do some serious rail damage, especially in cold weather.

Does that sound like what you heard as fasr as the clacking?

[csxengineer98]

all the noise you hear is normal train noise...the whine is the sound of the wheels on the rails...and a sqeek or screach from time to time is the sound of the flanges scraping the railhead once in a while...this is also normal...now a hammering sound or thumping sound..this is a flat stop on the wheel(s)..this is also normaly normal..but like someone the other person said..if the flat stop is to big..i can lead to breaking the rail...and any loud 1 time creaking and thumping sounds is the slack between the cars....this is also normal and depending on how good or bad the engineer is... it will be very little of this noise..or a hell of alot...
csx engineer

[jchnhtfd]

Four -- these guys have answered about the noise... you also asked about do railroads have a way to detect potential failures in bearings -- and possibly by implication, wheels. They do, and the means work pretty well but are not 100% infallible. Nothing in the engineering world is... sorry... they are referred to, in general, as hot box detectors, although now-a-days there is more to it. A hot box is the old term for a bearing going bad, because in the old days the bearings were oil lubricated sleeve bearings; when they ran dry, they heated up (slowly) long before they failed -- hence 'hot box'. A hot box detector has a relatively simple mechanism in it which measures the difference in temperature of the bearings on one side of the axle vs. the other side -- and does it on the fly as the train goes by. If the temperature difference (or absolute temperature) is over a certain margin, indicating a failing bearing, a warning is radioed to the crew (who may have to stop and investigate) and a central facility (for maintenance warnings). The problem is that the old fashioned bearing failed rather slowly. The newer roller bearings are far more reliable -- but when they do fail, they fail quickly, and the warnings must be really paid attention to.
Hot box detectors often also have impact detectors associated with them, which measure the impact of the passing wheels on the rails. The objective here is to spot wheels with flat spots, and they do that pretty well.
That help any?

[Anonymous]

Thanks,guys. I understand about squeals and thumps being normal train noise,BUT with a significant loud banging on one car,it didn't sound normal.However,thanks for the replies. To; Csx engineer a question,do tofc units have total right of way?

[dldance]

Last summer, I was in Kingsland TX taking pictures of the SP bridge across the Colorado River. This line was long unused so I wasn;t expecting a train. All of a sudden, I heard the unmistakable growel of an EMD switcher and the thumping of a flat spot on a wheel. I grabbed my camera an got a picture of the first train to cross that bridge in about 2 years. The train was an Austin Area Terminal RR switcher and a Long Island RR communter car that is now owned by an organization in Llano TX.

I later caught up with the owners at a Railroad show and got the story of the flat spot. Seems like when the purchased the car, all wheels were true, but in the transfer from NY to TX, the car got moved with the brakes locked. The railroad replaced two of the four sets of wheels. Another set of wheels was undamage, but the thumper was not replaced because, "It was in spec."

dd

[dwil89]

Unfortunately the detectors don't pick everythig up. Several years ago, a northbound Conrail mixed freight derailed on the River Line ( West Shore of the Hudson in NY) near Stony Point, NY. A number of cars piled up and some dumped into the river. Cause; bearing that seized which eventually sheared the wheel off an axle of a covered hopper. The train was just shy of hitting the Stony Point detector, but the next detector south of there was in Orangeburg, a good 15-20 miles south. The Orangeburg detector did not pick up the bad bearing, and with all that distance to the next detector, it gave sufficient time for a catastrophic failure. Derailments and failures are much fewer than in early days, but the system is not foolproof. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Rodney Beck]

On the BNSF we now have warm bearing defect detectors they do not relay any information to the crew but they do set off alarms in Fort Worth and the only thing we the crew can do is set the car out for inspection and repairs. Some of the high pitched whine you hear is flange squeal and the thumps you hear are flat spots on the wheels.

Rodney Beck
Student engineer BNSF

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by foureasy

Thanks,guys. I understand about squeals and thumps being normal train noise,BUT with a significant loud banging on one car,it didn't sound normal.However,thanks for the replies.

Foureasy,

I know what you mean about the thumps. In my area CSX freights zip by at 50 to 60 mph. Especially on intermodals, I'll hear the occasional....wump-wump-wump-wump... sound from a few of the cars on a train.

If it is VERY LOUD, I would definitly call the railroad and let them know. Better for it to be a false alarm rather than something than can result in a serious derailment up ahead for that train.

Personally, I suggest that railfans write down and keep their local railroad's phone number handy. Class one's usually have a number that persons from the public can contact them 24-7.

Cheers!

[tree68]

I've got the CSX number programmed in my cell phone...

Most flat wheels are pretty obvious as they pass you. For a real racket, combine a flat wheel with an empty hopper.

[jchnhtfd]

dwil89 -- that wreck (and several others) (there is a terrific write-up on a recent one in Canada -- don't have the link here) illustrates what I was saying about roller bearings -- they fail very rarely, but when they do, they go fast -- much faster than the old ones. Which is why you really have to be on the ball. The old ones, you usually got two or more detectors before it was stop and find out. Rollers bearings, if they sound off, best to set the car out and figure it out later. At the first available place...

[tpatrick]

An aside here about hotbox detectors. I have a tape called "Runnin' That New River Train" in which engineer Rich Melvin talks about HB detectors and steam locomotives. Mr. Melvin operates NKP 765, a 2-8-4. He says the detectors occasionally report the heat from the cylinders and firebox as overheated axles. When the detector reports a hot number 2 or number 7, he knows it is in error. Still it requires a stop for inspection, if only to confirm that ti is inded an error.

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

I've got the CSX number programmed in my cell phone...

Most flat wheels are pretty obvious as they pass you. For a real racket, combine a flat wheel with an empty hopper.

I've noticed alot of hoppers with flatspots.... When I stay at the Station Inn in Cresson, when a coal drag grinds upgrade past the Inn in the middle of the night, I can tell without looking out the window that it is a coal drag...especially so with the loaded drags. The train is perhaps doing 15-20 mph up the grade and it seems every few cars is the bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-.....I wonder why so many coal hoppers get flat-spots.....I know I witnessed one being loaded in Portage,Pa one time, and it seemed like the train was being dragged under the tipple with brakes partially engaged because of all the groaning and squealing I was hearing as the train moved through at barely a crawl...perhaps some wheels drag in these sutuations, causing flats. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

Here is a link to a timely on topic story. This is from the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen website on 12-06.

http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=12146

As always technology marches on.

Balboa

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwil89

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

I've got the CSX number programmed in my cell phone...

Most flat wheels are pretty obvious as they pass you. For a real racket, combine a flat wheel with an empty hopper.

I've noticed alot of hoppers with flatspots.... When I stay at the Station Inn in Cresson, when a coal drag grinds upgrade past the Inn in the middle of the night, I can tell without looking out the window that it is a coal drag...especially so with the loaded drags. The train is perhaps doing 15-20 mph up the grade and it seems every few cars is the bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-.....I wonder why so many coal hoppers get flat-spots.....I know I witnessed one being loaded in Portage,Pa one time, and it seemed like the train was being dragged under the tipple with brakes partially engaged because of all the groaning and squealing I was hearing as the train moved through at barely a crawl...perhaps some wheels drag in these sutuations, causing flats. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

Newer open top hoppers are very prone to slid flat wheels. The design goal is always to reduce the empty weight and to increase the allowable load per car. In order to maintain a decently high braking ratio when loaded, you wind up with a really high empty braking ratio. So, if there is anything at all on the rail that reduces adhesion, the wheels will start to slide. Once they start sliding, they keep sliding until the brakes are released. (static friction between the brake shoe and wheels being greater than sliding friction)

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwil89

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

I've got the CSX number programmed in my cell phone...

Most flat wheels are pretty obvious as they pass you. For a real racket, combine a flat wheel with an empty hopper.

I've noticed alot of hoppers with flatspots.... When I stay at the Station Inn in Cresson, when a coal drag grinds upgrade past the Inn in the middle of the night, I can tell without looking out the window that it is a coal drag...especially so with the loaded drags. The train is perhaps doing 15-20 mph up the grade and it seems every few cars is the bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-.....I wonder why so many coal hoppers get flat-spots.....I know I witnessed one being loaded in Portage,Pa one time, and it seemed like the train was being dragged under the tipple with brakes partially engaged because of all the groaning and squealing I was hearing as the train moved through at barely a crawl...perhaps some wheels drag in these sutuations, causing flats. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

Newer open top hoppers are very prone to slid flat wheels. The design goal is always to reduce the empty weight and to increase the allowable load per car. In order to maintain a decently high braking ratio when loaded, you wind up with a really high empty braking ratio. So, if there is anything at all on the rail that reduces adhesion, the wheels will start to slide. Once they start sliding, they keep sliding until the brakes are released. (static friction between the brake shoe and wheels being greater than sliding friction)

I guess this same thinking could be applied to older pickup trucks....their suspensions and braking systems were designed for loaded situations....Touch those brakes too hard when empty and road is wet, and they'd easily lock up. Anti-lock braking really helped pickups out in this regard.....Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown