I believe in giving credid where credit is due. Schlimm, that is an excellent analysis and explains the situation. Thank you.
BaltACDSo a passenger train operating at track speed (79 MPH most likely) was able to strike the van on the crossbuck crossing and stop within a train length????? since there are rail cars on the crossbuck crossing. Looking at the Google Map that was a part of the television station's news feed - much more likely the vehicle was struck at the CR 36 crossing and drug until the train stopped fouling the CR 32 crossing.
It was on a long tangent so far more likely the train started slowing and hit the van at much less than 79 mph. But of course you (2000 miles away) know more which crossing was involved than the police actually on the accident scene. Remarkable!!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
daveklepper I believe in giving credid where credit is due. Schlimm, that is an excellent analysis and explains the situation. Thank you.
Thanks but all I did was to read the state police report. Unlike some posters, I actually believe our police are capable of correctly examining an accident scene.
So, we know that the van failed to yield to the train, and that it did not stop on the crossing. That indicates that the van entered the crossing just a split second before the train did, and was struck by the train. Is there any report of the speed of the train during this collision?
And here we go.........
23 17 46 11
edblysard And here we go.........
Again, and again, and again. SOSDD.
Norm
I agree that the Police can be trusted to do the right analysis. There is no evidence that there is any politization of these local police in any way.
At the Federal level, I can provide evidence by return mail regarding politzation of Federal agencies, but nothing that has not alreadybeen in USA newspapers and/or magazines.
But my main thoiughts are to console the driver's and his victims' familes and the trian crew and their familiels.
All I know is I look at that picture of those little angels and I want to break down and cry.
Now they are angels, but I still want to cry.
Phoebe Vet,
And what is wrong with taking your children out of school to go hunting or to go on vacation?
Schools are not the only source of education.
schlimm BaltACD It was on a long tangent so far more likely the train started slowing and hit the van at much less than 79 mph. But of course you (2000 miles away) know more which crossing was involved than the police actually on the accident scene. Remarkable!!
BaltACD
If trains slowed or initiated emergency brake applications every time it looked like a vehicle was going to be on the crossing at the time the train occupied the crosssing - nearly EVERY CROSSING would become Stop & Flag and trains would rarely be able to reach track speed.
Published articles have conflicted on whether the vehicle was stopped on the crossing or moving across the crossing. In either case the drivers 'intent' must be called into question and after death their is no way to interrogate his state of mind.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD schlimm BaltACD It was on a long tangent so far more likely the train started slowing and hit the van at much less than 79 mph. But of course you (2000 miles away) know more which crossing was involved than the police actually on the accident scene. Remarkable!! If trains slowed or initiated emergency brake applications every time it looked like a vehicle was going to be on the crossing at the time the train occupied the crosssing - nearly EVERY CROSSING would become Stop & Flag and trains would rarely be able to reach track speed. Published articles have conflicted on whether the vehicle was stopped on the crossing or moving across the crossing. In either case the drivers 'intent' must be called into question and after death their is no way to interrogate his state of mind.
You totally ignored the point, of course. The point was, that based on ZERO knowledge, you disputed the State Patrol's accident report as to which crossing the accident occured at. Amazing abilities to divine that from 2000 miles!!
The driver's intent is largely irrelevant. It was his or her fault, i.e., a tragic human failure.
schlimm BaltACD schlimm BaltACD It was on a long tangent so far more likely the train started slowing and hit the van at much less than 79 mph. But of course you (2000 miles away) know more which crossing was involved than the police actually on the accident scene. Remarkable!! If trains slowed or initiated emergency brake applications every time it looked like a vehicle was going to be on the crossing at the time the train occupied the crosssing - nearly EVERY CROSSING would become Stop & Flag and trains would rarely be able to reach track speed. Published articles have conflicted on whether the vehicle was stopped on the crossing or moving across the crossing. In either case the drivers 'intent' must be called into question and after death their is no way to interrogate his state of mind. You totally ignored the point, of course. The point was, that based on ZERO knowledge, you disputed the State Patrol's accident report as to which crossing the accident occured at. Amazing abilities to divine that from 2000 miles!! The driver's intent is largely irrelevant. It was his or her fault, i.e., a tragic human failure.
Pictures published don't support the police story line.
BaltACDPictures published don't support the police story line
The pictures and Google show a crossing of an unimproved road with only a crossbucks consistent with the police report's specified county road.
Euclid There is a standard sign sometimes added to crossbucks that says "LOOK FOR TRAINS". I have seen it used where visibility to each side is limited, but perhaps it could apply to situations like the one in this accident where the cause was possibly complacency due to infrequent trains. The news says the driver entered the crossing without stopping as would be proper if he had observed no train approaching.
There is a standard sign sometimes added to crossbucks that says "LOOK FOR TRAINS". I have seen it used where visibility to each side is limited, but perhaps it could apply to situations like the one in this accident where the cause was possibly complacency due to infrequent trains.
The news says the driver entered the crossing without stopping as would be proper if he had observed no train approaching.
Found the following information referring to specifications and Signage:
See link @ http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/xings/com_roaduser/07010/sec04a.htm
The following is an excerpted Section from the FHWA Manual.
"Railroad-Highway Grade Crossing Handbook - Revised Second Edition August 2007" "Section IV Identification of Alternatives"
[ The information below is from the FHWA Manual, and on rewiew of the Manual, one finds that it covers, in minute detail all the diamensions of Hwy-Rail Grade Crossings. Signage that qualifies and is specified by the Manual; for those crossings are protected by Passive Railroad warning signage. Such signage is constructed and lettered with specific warning devices to cope with the multitued of situations presented by each crossing, and the protection required as outlined.]
H. Passive Traffic Control Devices
'...Passive traffic control devices provide static messages of warning, guidance, and, in some instances, mandatory action for the driver. Their purpose is to identify and direct attention to the location of a crossing to permit drivers and pedestrians to take appropriate action. Passive traffic control devices consist of regulatory signs, warning signs, guide signs, and supplemental pavement markings. They are basic devices and are incorporated into the design of active traffic control devices..."
There is no fix. There is just "better". As much as pubic funding allows, eliminate, close and improve road crossings. That's it.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Due to limited funding, signalized or “active” crossing installations are prioritized for the busiest roads and/or the busiest railroads. The remaining crossings are non-signalized or “passive” crossings. Some passive crossings also have relatively little train traffic. With some of those, the sparse train traffic is also routinely slow moving. But with some passive crossings having sparse train traffic, the traffic that does exist moves quite fast.
As I understand it, the crossing where this accident occurred is one of those passive crossings with just two Amtrak trains per day. If that is true, this is a passive crossing with very small traffic density, which runs relatively fast.
People who routinely cross at such crossings get complacent because they rarely encounter a train. But if they do happen to encounter a train, the encounter is very unforgiving due to the high speed of the train.
That is why I think a LOOK FOR TRAINS sign would be helpful at this particular crossing. The message would help dissolve the natural onset of complacency.
Otherwise, with the complacency arising from never encountering a train, a driver is likely to perceive the crossbuck as just informing that a railroad track is there without conveying the deeper meaning that a driver must not cross unless he or she determines that no train is approaching.
In the Trinidad Chronicle-News is a news item detailing a memorial service for the Miller family tomorrow, July 1. The memorial will be in the Hoehne High School's gym at ten in the morning. The gym is about 200 yards from the BNSF line that the SW Chief runs on, and the WB #3 is scheduled to arrive at Trinidad at 9:50 am. If it arrives at 10:33 am like it did today, that's gonna be just bad.
Let's hope for once that the train is significantly delayed for once. (The SW Chief usually has a pretty good on-time performance, but just this once, I'm wishing for some delay into Trinidad.)
UPDATE: It appears #3 arrived at Trinidad at 9:59 AM Friday morning, so at least the train didn't come through blowing for the crossing during the memorial service. A blessing.
A steel or stone bridge somewhere over the tracks has be safer than a grade crossing.
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Andrew FalconerA steel or stone bridge somewhere over the tracks has be safer than a grade crossing.
No question there. The problem is the hundreds of crossings without sufficient road traffic to justify the expense of building and maintaining such structures.
Add to that the possibility that the detour around a closed crossing of this type may run to tens of miles in some areas, and the problem is thus compounded.
In this incident, a look at the satellite images of the site seem to show the crossing is, indeed, a driveway. The only possible replacement would seem to be a road paralleling the BNSF line out to County Road 75-1. There's not really enough real estate for a bridge.
Crossing in question: N 37 13' 14" W 104 27' 29"
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
It's the Google Earth view we have seen for several days. Coming out of the backside of the farm, there appears to be a dirt/grass road that connects to Rt. 75 about 2500' SW of the farm.
If this was a private driveway would the railroad even have whistle posts?
The google earth view shows County Road 32 as an East-West road that intersects the BNSF main track and then ends as a "public road" with a crossing entending onto private property.
There only appears to be private property just east - and across the tracks- and that private property would appear to be the only likely user of the crossing. If this private property is also the residence of those killed then their being on this crossing can be explained.
However, the Colorado Hwy. Patrol report says the vehicle was northbound when struck. The most likely nearby place for this to occur would be on County Rd. 75.1 (a north-south road) that is located toward Trinidad a short distance from County Rd 32. My info indicates County Rd. 75.1 is protected by bells and flashers.
Will someone with access to later law inforcement data please help clarify whether the van was on 75.1 or 32.
Two days after the accident the Trinidad Chronicle-News is reporting it as being on County Rd. 75.1. I was basing my earlier comment on the State Patrol report that said it was Co. Rd. 32. That's about 1/2 mile west of Co. Rd. 32.
http://www.thechronicle-news.com/local/five-killed-one-injured-in-amtrak-collision-east-of-trinidad/article_0842e1d2-3bf6-11e6-bffa-7b27bb41acd7.html
The private crossing we've been discussing is number 003323F, MP 632.254. The GPS coordinates plot a little east on Acme Mapper.
The CR 75.1 crossing is 003324M, listed only as "Co Rd." Made the search a little confusing as CR 75.1 also crosses the rail line several miles further east.
One image in the news reports showed rescue workers standing by at the CR 75.1 crossing. This would make sense as the head end of the train would likely have stopped closer to that than the private crossing.
I would opine that the reporter was talking about where emergency crews accessed the vehicle, possibly not putting two and two together that the vehicle was carried for a distance by the train.
You are likely right Larry. The proximity of the two crossings seems about right and the train probably stopped on the 75.1 crossing. Different news sources= different stories.
Norm48327 Two days after the accident the Trinidad Chronicle-News is reporting it as being on County Rd. 75.1. I was basing my earlier comment on the State Patrol report that said it was Co. Rd. 32. That's about 1/2 mile west of Co. Rd. 32. http://www.thechronicle-news.com/local/five-killed-one-injured-in-amtrak-collision-east-of-trinidad/article_0842e1d2-3bf6-11e6-bffa-7b27bb41acd7.html
My earlier comments were based on the realities that the police report of CR 32 being the location of the accident didn't jibe with the published pictures.
schlimmYou totally ignored the point, of course. The point was, that based on ZERO knowledge, you disputed the State Patrol's accident report as to which crossing the accident occured at. Amazing abilities to divine that from 2000 miles!!
Turns out that he was pretty good from 2000 miles away, and he did provide his reasons for thinking so... snarkasm to the contrary.
For the love of all that is holy... who cares? Does the route number really matter to anyone here? Serously, folks.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
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