IIRC, back in the dark ages when TOFC and particularly COFC were in their infancy, about 50 years ago, some railroad traffic people touted the possibility of flatcars with empty trailers or containers being spotted at shippers sidings for movement to consignees who had no rail siding. The opposite situtation was also talked about: shippers with no rail siding being able to ship to their customers who insisted on rail delivery at their dock. This loading and unloading would presumably have taken place through side doors in the trailers or containers.
Does anyone know of any movements like this today? I would imagine railroads would frown upon it because of the extra switching costs involved but I also know there are railroad managers who won't turn down any traffic if they can make 50¢ on it.
ChuckAllen, TX
Good question. I think we discussed it a while back and the answer was a pretty definitive no.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I can't remember the last time I saw a trailer with a side door, and I never heard of a container with a side door. Also TOFC would not match loading dock height.
Closest thing I can think of is the CN ramp in Arcadia WI. It's pretty much dedicated to Ashely Furniture.
Close, perhaps...The Indiana & Ohio built a siding just a few years ago into a facility near Washington Court House, Ohio that ships locally "grown to order" food-grade soybeans to Asia. The plan was to load the ocean cans with the beans right at the elevator complex and have the I&O take them 70 miles to a on-line rail-to-barge container transload facility being constructed in Cincinnati. The containers were then barged to New Orleans and transfered on container ships for the ocean portion of the trip. That plan lasted less than year, due to what I understand were problems with getting the Cincinnati transload in place. Since they wound up having to "rubber" the cans between the rail and barge terminals in Cincinnati, they dropped the front-end rail haul, and just haul the loaded containers 40 miles over the highway to the NS and/or CSX Columbus intermodal terminals for rail haulage to the ports.
cefinkjr IIRC, back in the dark ages when TOFC and particularly COFC were in their infancy, about 50 years ago, some railroad traffic people touted the possibility of flatcars with empty trailers or containers being spotted at shippers sidings for movement to consignees who had no rail siding. The opposite situtation was also talked about: shippers with no rail siding being able to ship to their customers who insisted on rail delivery at their dock. This loading and unloading would presumably have taken place through side doors in the trailers or containers. Does anyone know of any movements like this today? I would imagine railroads would frown upon it because of the extra switching costs involved but I also know there are railroad managers who won't turn down any traffic if they can make 50¢ on it.
What you describe is quite common in Europe, where a 40' or 45' container is placed on a standard 60' flatcar with the door to open deck or 2 20' containers placed at the ends of a 60' flatcar with the doors to the middle. It is then spotted at an industry loading dock and a customer uses a ramp to adapt to the height differences. I haven't seen it done in North America.
beaulieu cefinkjr IIRC, back in the dark ages when TOFC and particularly COFC were in their infancy, about 50 years ago, some railroad traffic people touted the possibility of flatcars with empty trailers or containers being spotted at shippers sidings for movement to consignees who had no rail siding. The opposite situtation was also talked about: shippers with no rail siding being able to ship to their customers who insisted on rail delivery at their dock. This loading and unloading would presumably have taken place through side doors in the trailers or containers. Does anyone know of any movements like this today? I would imagine railroads would frown upon it because of the extra switching costs involved but I also know there are railroad managers who won't turn down any traffic if they can make 50¢ on it. What you describe is quite common in Europe, where a 40' or 45' container is placed on a standard 60' flatcar with the door to open deck or 2 20' containers placed at the ends of a 60' flatcar with the doors to the middle. It is then spotted at an industry loading dock and a customer uses a ramp to adapt to the height differences. I haven't seen it done in North America.
I wonder if they also use those trailers with "roll-up" sides that are more common in Europe than here. Or would that be too much of a security risk? I've never been close enough to one of those to know what the material is that gets rolled up.
cefinkjrI wonder if they also use those trailers with "roll-up" sides that are more common in Europe than here. Or would that be too much of a security risk? I've never been close enough to one of those to know what the material is that gets rolled up.
That's more weather protection than 'security' -- a bit like those Horseless Carriage straight-truck-and-trailer combos that deliver new BMWs in a 'controlled environment' but whose outside trailer walls are basically membranes with little effective structural integrity compared even to aluminum sheet.
Be an interesting exercise to make a side-door container that would survive ocean crossings without racking shut (or worse!) It could surely be done, and within ISO external regulations, but note that you would need to maintain at least some form of end doors for compatibility with Customs and other inspection procedures, and you would still have the rather obvious problem that side-door accessibility of a container on either level of a well car is decidedly not good from basically anyone's existing dock -- high level or low. You could get around that -- as clever inventors have repeatedly 're-invented' over lo! these many years -- by putting some sort of lift or jack arrangement in that would elevate, stabilize, and hold the container at 'just the right level' for access -- some of them allowing the car to be rolled out and released to other service in the meantime.
But by the time you've gotten a critical mass of side-door containers, and the equipment production and distribution to use them effectively where and when needed ... you've spent orders of magnitude more money than figuring out how to back a container on an ordinary rubber-tired chassis onto whatever blocking is needed to get deck level accessible from conventional end doors. It's hard to beat the forces that have made the particular system of containerization found in use today so accepted and successful...
The Swiss Postal Service "Die Poste" has a fleet domestic hard-walled containers with side doors. These never leave Switzerland. They are handled like containers at the main sorting center at Harkingen(near Olten), but are used like boxcars at the small mail distribution centers around Switzerland.
Example of side door Postal Container
Note the side door is of the Plug type.
Curtain side trailers aren't common in the US, but when I owned a small furniture manufacturing company, I received my Hardwood lumber in one. The curtain side made it easy to unload long bundles of lumber too large to pickup through the end door as the pieces of wood were as long as 16 feet.
RMEBe an interesting exercise to make a side-door container that would survive ocean crossings without racking shut (or worse!) ... you would still have the rather obvious problem that side-door accessibility of a container on either level of a well car is decidedly not good from basically anyone's existing dock
I wasn't necessarily imagining ocean crossings but, as you pointed out, there aren't any insurmountable problems there. I was really thinking in terms of domestic traffic; not every container goes overseas.
Containers in well cars would certainly be impractical. The work-around here is that the shipper would have to specify that the requested container(s) be loaded on flats and not in wells when spotted at a rail dock. This wouldn't really be any different than shippers specifying a particular class of car with specific load restraints as some do now. Trailers would only be a problem until a portable ramp of suitable height and length could be moved into place. Since most rail shipments are repetitive, these would both be one-time problems. After that, everybody involved would know how it was done the last time and would just do it again.
cefinkjr RME Be an interesting exercise to make a side-door container that would survive ocean crossings without racking shut (or worse!) ... you would still have the rather obvious problem that side-door accessibility of a container on either level of a well car is decidedly not good from basically anyone's existing dock I wasn't necessarily imagining ocean crossings but, as you pointed out, there aren't any insurmountable problems there. I was really thinking in terms of domestic traffic; not every container goes overseas. Containers in well cars would certainly be impractical. The work-around here is that the shipper would have to specify that the requested container(s) be loaded on flats and not in wells when spotted at a rail dock. This wouldn't really be any different than shippers specifying a particular class of car with specific load restraints as some do now. Trailers would only be a problem until a portable ramp of suitable height and length could be moved into place. Since most rail shipments are repetitive, these would both be one-time problems. After that, everybody involved would know how it was done the last time and would just do it again.
RME Be an interesting exercise to make a side-door container that would survive ocean crossings without racking shut (or worse!) ... you would still have the rather obvious problem that side-door accessibility of a container on either level of a well car is decidedly not good from basically anyone's existing dock
DARREN OTTEswithing is a high cost for the railroad. That is why you need full carloads to make it work . I don't thimk container size loads would pay enough
Probably. But don't forget that most rates are set based on the value of the cargo; not on how full the container or car is. Even the distance involved sometimes seems like an afterthought.
In any case, my original question starting this thread asked if anyone knew of containers or trailers being moved from or to a rail-served dock.
Allied Van Lines at one time had a small fleet of 53' containers that they used for household goods movement via Pacer Stacktrain(when it still existed). Had side doors built into them, so it's not impossible(side note: some of JB Hunts early 53' container had to be retired very early because the containers bowed in the middle due to weakness in construction).
GERALD L MCFARLANE JRAllied Van Lines at one time had a small fleet of 53' containers that they used for household goods movement via Pacer Stacktrain (when it still existed). Had side doors built into them, so it's not impossible
I looked but couldn't find a picture of one of the Allied containers with side doors (but did find evidence of a 48-footer on the 'bottom' of a stack - note the construction differences):
Can someone provide a picture or working description of the type with side doors so I can look at the construction?
cefinkjrBut don't forget that most rates are set based on the value of the cargo;
Not any more. That type of pricing was based on the effect the transportation charge had on the end cost of the delivered cargo. The higher value items were less effected by the transportation charge so they could take a higher rate and not experience much of a change in their delivered price to the end user.
When trucking became practical this sort of pricing became obsolete because the transportation user could simply use his/her own truck and avoid the extra mark up.
Despite its obsolescence the inane government regulators insisted that the railroads maintain "Value of Service/Value of Commodity" pricing. This didn't work and a lot of rail business was diverted to trucking because the railroads were not permitted to adjust their pricing to the new reality.
Many of the important regulatory court battles were the ones where the railroad was being prohibited from reducing their charges to remain competitive.
greyhounds cefinkjr But don't forget that most rates are set based on the value of the cargo; Not any more. That type of pricing was based on the effect the transportation charge had on the end cost of the delivered cargo. ....
cefinkjr But don't forget that most rates are set based on the value of the cargo;
Not any more. That type of pricing was based on the effect the transportation charge had on the end cost of the delivered cargo. ....
My rapidly-becoming-more-obsolete opinions stand corrected by your more current knowledge.
Let me just add that my opinions reflect the conditions under which we worked back in the not-so-good old days.
cefinkjr greyhounds cefinkjr Not any more. That type of pricing was based on the effect the transportation charge had on the end cost of the delivered cargo. .... My rapidly-becoming-more-obsolete opinions stand corrected by your more current knowledge. Let me just add that my opinions reflect the conditions under which we worked back in the not-so-good old days.
greyhounds cefinkjr Not any more. That type of pricing was based on the effect the transportation charge had on the end cost of the delivered cargo. ....
cefinkjr
The enactment of Staggers in 1980 changed the railroads in many, many ways.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
RME GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Allied Van Lines at one time had a small fleet of 53' containers that they used for household goods movement via Pacer Stacktrain (when it still existed). Had side doors built into them, so it's not impossible Can someone provide a picture or working description of the type with side doors so I can look at the construction?
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Allied Van Lines at one time had a small fleet of 53' containers that they used for household goods movement via Pacer Stacktrain (when it still existed). Had side doors built into them, so it's not impossible
"Allied Van Line had a fleet of 48' containers, not 53' containers. Both x-post and sheet and post, mostly from Monon, but some Hyundai built. All did have curb side doors, but I'm not aware of any deficiency caused by such. Also, I don't believe that there was any association with Pacer, these boxes ran coast to coast, on many lines. Just google "AVLU container" for images, or see:
Paul_D_North_Jr RME GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Allied Van Lines at one time had a small fleet of 53' containers that they used for household goods movement via Pacer Stacktrain (when it still existed). Had side doors built into them, so it's not impossible Can someone provide a picture or working description of the type with side doors so I can look at the construction? Here's a response I got: "Allied Van Line had a fleet of 48' containers, not 53' containers. Both x-post and sheet and post, mostly from Monon, but some Hyundai built. All did have curb side doors, but I'm not aware of any deficiency caused by such. Also, I don't believe that there was any association with Pacer, these boxes ran coast to coast, on many lines. Just google "AVLU container" for images, or see: http://www.matts-place.com/intermodal/part3/images/allied48s.jpg It was very common to see these boxes stacked for storage in the winter months, which is the off-season for household moving. United Van Lines also had at least one 48' box as well." Credit goes entirely to Chad Hewitt on the modelintermodal@yahoogroups.com list/ forum. Well worth joining if you're interested in this kind of thing. The description and comments on the JB Hunt containers that he also sent to me is based on his observations and experiences, and has good insight and analysis. - Paul North.
Here's a response I got:
I didn't bother to verify the size, though I probably should have. I used to work for Pacer Global Logistics and Allied did a lot of business from the SF Bay Area using those boxes, they would keep them in a yard on Willow Road in East Menlo Park. The only reason I know they used Pacer Stack Train is because it was subsidiary of Pacer Global at the time, and we moved Military HHGDS using regular Pacer 53' boxes...and I'd occassionally see the Allied boxes on Pacer Stacktrains(when they used to have dedicated trains, before the partial giveaway to UP).
The JB Hunt statement is something I remember from way back when, but it's been over 20 years since I heard about those early containers, and if I recall it was just one batch of them that didn't prove adequate.
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