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Question about RoadRailers

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  • Member since
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Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 8:57 AM
OK, how would having a "kicker", "dynamiiter", or hose break in an intermodal train with RoadRailers (and power) on the rear be significantly different from
having a a similar event in a DPU coal train with power on the rear?

In the coal train there are 100+ "slack points" where coupling between cars is made. On the IM train, with articulated equipment, there would be much fewer - resulting in much less "run in". There could be fewer joints on an IM train ahead of the RoadRailers than there were on the Amtrak trains ahead of the RoadRailers.

Doesn't seem to be a problem. In any event the RoadRailer equipment would go into emergency just like the rest of the train.

Why do you think this would be a problem? I'm just asking.
"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 11:14 AM
You still have plenty of slack in intermodal trains. There are still lots of 90' flats out there plus many single well cars, for example. An 8000' foot IM train would generally have 40-50 "slack points." If the slack were to run in fairly harshly, for whatever reason, the solid block of RRs trailing would be faced with some rather severe deceleration. And since the RRs are slackless so their mass acts as a solid body, and F=ma, you'd create a rather large "F" which, at the least, would start you down the slippery slope of metal fatigue, or at the worst, tear things up right now.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 11:19 AM
Oops. Left out your Amtrak point. Amtrak trains are much shorter than intermodal trains, have tightlock couplers that have much less free slack, have graduated release braking and can be handled with power braking and kept stretched. This all helps keep the forces down.

You might want to consider mixing intermodal with RR equipment if you were trying to get into a market where you didn't have enought volume for either alone. But, tacking some RRs onto the rear of a "full sized" intermodal train would be asking for trouble.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 1:07 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

Slack is not a problem with putting RoadRailers on the back of an Intermodal train. Niether is positioning them on the rear of a train.

If you're worried about slack, just use distributed power. Instead of three locos on the head of the train, put two up front and one in back. Make your pickup behind the third unit. The "Slack Problem", if there ever was on in an articulated IM train, is solved.

The "rear only" thing can be solved with some planning. Here B an example.

Denver is an inbound city. Equipment goes empty there and there aren't any loads outbound for the equipment. BNSF has to drag the empties back to Chicago. What a waste of diesel fuel.

But, there are large meat plants on line at Ft. Morgan, CO and Grand Island, NE. All the outbound fresh beef goes by truck. Just put the RoadRailers (which took loads in to Denver) on the back of the IM train from Denver to Chicago. Make a set out and pick up at Ft. Morgan and Grand Island. And handle the loads on the rear. Ain't no big thing.

Haul the freight and send 'em a bill.

Yes, you're going to have to have the train do work at these two points. It's not like a new thing. Trains have done work at Ft. Morgan and Grand Island for over 100 years.

The alternative is to continue to move empty equipment all the way out of Denver, with zero revenue to cover the costs.

Hanging them on the rear will limit flexibility, but the rewards (revenue) will more than offset the costs of the limits. The slack problem, if it exists, can be solved.

Ken


Understand how dist. power can help and engineer control slack. But, it doesn't prevent run in or run out if not used properly. If you put 2000' of RR behind 8000' of conventional IM - distributed power or not, you can still have the slack run in/out and generate some high forces.


Ideally, you want the RR units up front, followed by the DPU, then the rest of the consist.


That would be worse. RRs are only good for 400,000# buff. You can't count on a DPU to keep buff forces from the RRs if slack runs in.


How bout this: A powerless command cab up front, then the RR's, then the motive power DPU's, then the rest of the consist? Or is slack run in still a problem?

Which is more impactful, slack run out or slack run in?
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 1:29 PM
Also, aren't DPU's used to keep the slack bunched in the forward consist? So there would be no slack run in or run out.
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Posted by broncoman on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 2:21 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt

In the SP days, Schneider road railers used to come through Marysville CA on the rear of freight trains. A 2 or 3 day a week scheduled service. They always had a single box car coupled behind them. I don't know why. Could it have been for monitoring equipment?

How did I miss this? I have heard about and saw the Swift Roadrailers (unfortunately I did not get to see them until after UP took over). When did the service begin and end?


Sorry I don't remember [:(] I know the Swifts started running before the merger. The Schneiders quit running before that. I think, a year or so and that they ran for at least 2 years.


Is it possible that they just changed equipment. I see a Schneider Z train on mostly All purpose spine cars heading westbound through Auburn CA.at around 5pm mon-fri. There have been anywhere from 10-40 trailers and at least 2 to 5 engines. Could they have had a problem with Roadrailers in the past?

Dave
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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 2:28 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Also, aren't DPU's used to keep the slack bunched in the forward consist? So there would be no slack run in or run out.


If you get an train initiated emergency, the DPU is just another big freight car. It goes to idle or Notch 1 and is basically useless for controlling slack.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 2:49 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

Slack is not a problem with putting RoadRailers on the back of an Intermodal train. Niether is positioning them on the rear of a train.

If you're worried about slack, just use distributed power. Instead of three locos on the head of the train, put two up front and one in back. Make your pickup behind the third unit. The "Slack Problem", if there ever was on in an articulated IM train, is solved.

The "rear only" thing can be solved with some planning. Here B an example.

Denver is an inbound city. Equipment goes empty there and there aren't any loads outbound for the equipment. BNSF has to drag the empties back to Chicago. What a waste of diesel fuel.

But, there are large meat plants on line at Ft. Morgan, CO and Grand Island, NE. All the outbound fresh beef goes by truck. Just put the RoadRailers (which took loads in to Denver) on the back of the IM train from Denver to Chicago. Make a set out and pick up at Ft. Morgan and Grand Island. And handle the loads on the rear. Ain't no big thing.

Haul the freight and send 'em a bill.

Yes, you're going to have to have the train do work at these two points. It's not like a new thing. Trains have done work at Ft. Morgan and Grand Island for over 100 years.

The alternative is to continue to move empty equipment all the way out of Denver, with zero revenue to cover the costs.

Hanging them on the rear will limit flexibility, but the rewards (revenue) will more than offset the costs of the limits. The slack problem, if it exists, can be solved.

Ken


Understand how dist. power can help and engineer control slack. But, it doesn't prevent run in or run out if not used properly. If you put 2000' of RR behind 8000' of conventional IM - distributed power or not, you can still have the slack run in/out and generate some high forces.


Ideally, you want the RR units up front, followed by the DPU, then the rest of the consist.


That would be worse. RRs are only good for 400,000# buff. You can't count on a DPU to keep buff forces from the RRs if slack runs in.


How bout this: A powerless command cab up front, then the RR's, then the motive power DPU's, then the rest of the consist? Or is slack run in still a problem?

Which is more impactful, slack run out or slack run in?


You still have the problem of slack running in due to an emergency brake application. Where you place the power won't matter, much.

As for "in" or "out", run in, I think, would be worse - I suspect because a train can stop far faster than it can accelerate. Also, from a car design standpoint, if I can withstand the design buff load without buckling, I'll likely be OK in draft.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, December 7, 2004 10:48 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

You still have plenty of slack in intermodal trains. There are still lots of 90' flats out there plus many single well cars, for example. An 8000' foot IM train would generally have 40-50 "slack points." If the slack were to run in fairly harshly, for whatever reason, the solid block of RRs trailing would be faced with some rather severe deceleration. And since the RRs are slackless so their mass acts as a solid body, and F=ma, you'd create a rather large "F" which, at the least, would start you down the slippery slope of metal fatigue, or at the worst, tear things up right now.


I'll agree that an 8,000 foot train with 40-50 "slack points" ahead of a large RoadRailer consist is out of the question. But that's not where I'm going.

Let's take the Chicago - Minneapolis RoadRailer operation on the UP. The UP has severly limited its market on this lane by going "RoadRailer" only. If they could handle trailers/containers on the same train they could go for a significant revenue increase with little expense increase. As I said: Haul the freight and send 'em a bill.

If they'd do something like put CP Expressway articulated cars ahead of the RoadRailers they could take regular interchange traffic to/from the Twin Cities with little or no increase in cost. No extra train crew expense. No added locomotives (it's a really slow schedule). And the same terminal crews that handle the RoadRailers could ramp/deramp the trailers and containers (handled on chassis). Since the Expressway cars have their own ramps, alsmost no terminal capital improvements would be required.

They can't keep leaving money behind by limting what they can handle on their (expensive to operate) trains. I'm confident it can be done. Experimental operations, operations in Mexico, and simulations have shown that. All that is lacking is what the military calls "The Will of the Commander" to make it work.

RoadRailers will never expand much beyone their current niche market without such operation.
"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.

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