The anti-union stuff makes a great red herring, but both manpower and real estate cost money. Eliminating either represents a savings, and an increase in the bottom line - and that's what business is all about.
The elimination of steam reduced both. I think that fact is beyond refute.
The fact that labor is represented by unions is more coincidental than a major factor. If labor had been slaves, those which existed to service steam would still have been eliminated, as it still would have represented a cost.
While anti-union sentiment certain existed (as it still does in some quarters), I would opine that said sentiment was a truly insignificant factor in the Dieselization of US railroads.
The idea that GM (or anyone else) might have tried to replace rail with trucks (a la the legend of Pacific Electric) is interesting, but as noted, would not have been able to replace the bulk capacity of rail. From local experience, a cogen plant here changed over from coal/coke to wood chips. The coal/coke arrived by rail. The wood chips arrive by truck, and it's virtually impossible to pass that area without seeing at least a few wood chip trucks coming or going.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Miningman Murphy Siding- ummm, yah! That could happen, the world can change and turn on a dime. I picture a 6-8-8-6 duplex drive hauling a 120 car double stack along the shores of Lake Erie emitting nothing more than water vapour verses 4 diesels with their carcinogenic particulate exhaust. That is what this thread has been about...could it have happened? Maybe it will yet. One breakthrough is all that is needed. The rest falls into place.
Murphy Siding- ummm, yah! That could happen, the world can change and turn on a dime. I picture a 6-8-8-6 duplex drive hauling a 120 car double stack along the shores of Lake Erie emitting nothing more than water vapour verses 4 diesels with their carcinogenic particulate exhaust. That is what this thread has been about...could it have happened? Maybe it will yet. One breakthrough is all that is needed. The rest falls into place.
Are you firing your Super Duplex with Uranium because that's the only way you're going to have only Vapor coming out of that stack?
Tier IV compliant diesel electrics emit very little particulate...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Meanwhile, in the commercial trucking industry, new engine designs with a focus on performance emerged after World War II. Direct-injection turbo-charged diesel engines that became a standard emerged during the 1950s, in large part thanks to the work of Volvo in Sweden. Engine manufacturers such as the U.S. Cummins and British Perkins companies began heavily supplying the market with diesel engines through the 1960s as the trucking industry began its conversion from standard gasoline.
http://www.historyoftrucks.com/history_of_mac_trucks.html
Who gets nostolgic over motor freight and buses powered using a carburator, distributor and spark plugs? A web search brings up little on heavy trucks converting from gasoline to diesel.
carnej1 Miningman Murphy Siding- ummm, yah! That could happen, the world can change and turn on a dime. I picture a 6-8-8-6 duplex drive hauling a 120 car double stack along the shores of Lake Erie emitting nothing more than water vapour verses 4 diesels with their carcinogenic particulate exhaust. That is what this thread has been about...could it have happened? Maybe it will yet. One breakthrough is all that is needed. The rest falls into place. Are you firing your Super Duplex with Uranium because that's the only way you're going to have only Vapor coming out of that stack? Tier IV compliant diesel electrics emit very little particulate...
Perhaps Miningman works in the downsizing coal industry?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Howdy Schlimm- No don't work in the coal industry..I'm strictly a hard rock mining guy. Drill and blast, make your round, muck it out. Mostly gold and massive sulphides, iron ore mines, some uranium ( that's a bit different kettle of fish). Have posted a profile, ...I teach Mining Engineering and Geology now that I am, unfortunately, in my later years. Worked with the railroads on developing and proper engineering with ore haulage from our mines. Have wrote extensively on this thread and thought perhaps it needed to be revived, brought back to life a little. Mostly the posts were serious ....so I repeat, surely greater minds than mine can figure out a way to boil water without using fossil fuels. One breakthrough away, that all its takes. By the way, love the Chicago and NorthWestern. Those "zeppelins" coming out of the shops after WWII were something. A great road with a great logo and a stellar history. Spent much time in Chicago and area in the 70's and 80's and got to witness a lot of what was around. Great memories.
Murphy Siding Euclid The railroads have demonstrated that it is not always easy to get rid of the people after getting rid of the function. Diesel “firemen” was a great example. Cabooses, crew size, telegraphers and operators, and depots are other examples. With union labor, getting rid of people is fought by the unions whether the labor is needed for a function or not. So it is not necessarily true that if the railroads could have figured out ways to reduce labor in steam maintenance and repair, they would have done so. Where is the motivation to do it if the unions won’t let you get rid of the labor that is no longer needed after reducing steam maintenance? Not only would be hard to get rid of steam labor it if were not needed, but also due to the same dynamic, labor may have been allowed to expand beyond actual need as the steam age progressed. I suggest that getting rid of steam may have been an extreme decision for the purpose of getting rid of the steam labor that could not have been reduced otherwise simply by reducing the need for maintenance and repair. It would be hardest for the unions to argue that steam labor is needed when you have no steam. Although they did argue that in the case of the steam firemen. Then there are those folks who are so indecisive in their views, but still need to defend those views as being... *right*... no matter what. That need goes so far as to constantly reinterpret those views to fit whatever they're supposed to mean today.
Euclid The railroads have demonstrated that it is not always easy to get rid of the people after getting rid of the function. Diesel “firemen” was a great example. Cabooses, crew size, telegraphers and operators, and depots are other examples. With union labor, getting rid of people is fought by the unions whether the labor is needed for a function or not. So it is not necessarily true that if the railroads could have figured out ways to reduce labor in steam maintenance and repair, they would have done so. Where is the motivation to do it if the unions won’t let you get rid of the labor that is no longer needed after reducing steam maintenance? Not only would be hard to get rid of steam labor it if were not needed, but also due to the same dynamic, labor may have been allowed to expand beyond actual need as the steam age progressed. I suggest that getting rid of steam may have been an extreme decision for the purpose of getting rid of the steam labor that could not have been reduced otherwise simply by reducing the need for maintenance and repair. It would be hardest for the unions to argue that steam labor is needed when you have no steam. Although they did argue that in the case of the steam firemen.
Then there are those folks who are so indecisive in their views, but still need to defend those views as being... *right*... no matter what. That need goes so far as to constantly reinterpret those views to fit whatever they're supposed to mean today.
MiningmanBy the way, love the Chicago and NorthWestern. Those "zeppelins" coming out of the shops after WWII were something. A great road with a great logo and a stellar history. Spent much time in Chicago and area in the 70's and 80's and got to witness a lot of what was around. Great memories.
We all get old, unfortunately. Staying healthy and in good enough shape to enjoy (semi)retirement's time is the key. Many good memories in the area from the 50's to present.
Euclid Murphy Siding Euclid The railroads have demonstrated that it is not always easy to get rid of the people after getting rid of the function. Diesel “firemen” was a great example. Cabooses, crew size, telegraphers and operators, and depots are other examples. With union labor, getting rid of people is fought by the unions whether the labor is needed for a function or not. So it is not necessarily true that if the railroads could have figured out ways to reduce labor in steam maintenance and repair, they would have done so. Where is the motivation to do it if the unions won’t let you get rid of the labor that is no longer needed after reducing steam maintenance? Not only would be hard to get rid of steam labor it if were not needed, but also due to the same dynamic, labor may have been allowed to expand beyond actual need as the steam age progressed. I suggest that getting rid of steam may have been an extreme decision for the purpose of getting rid of the steam labor that could not have been reduced otherwise simply by reducing the need for maintenance and repair. It would be hardest for the unions to argue that steam labor is needed when you have no steam. Although they did argue that in the case of the steam firemen. Then there are those folks who are so indecisive in their views, but still need to defend those views as being... *right*... no matter what. That need goes so far as to constantly reinterpret those views to fit whatever they're supposed to mean today. Oh yes, I could not agree more. I see that all the time here on the forum.
Pot, meet Kettle.
Norm
Norm48327 EuclidOh yes, I could not agree more. I see that all the time here on the forum. Pot, meet Kettle.
EuclidOh yes, I could not agree more. I see that all the time here on the forum.
And they both come from the same place.
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