Trains.com

Frailey on oil trains.

6377 views
42 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Monday, April 13, 2015 8:46 AM

Midland Mike,

You're the one who cited the article and made the point about it.  I am only responding to that point as you made it.  Then you came back and changed that point.  My point was simple and I have not changed it.  It is that nobody can say whether oil by rail will be stopped by government regulation.  If they do say it can't, I believe they are wrong.  If Phillips did not say that, then tell me what he did say.  If I get a chance to see the article, I will read it. 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Cardiff, CA
  • 2,930 posts
Posted by erikem on Monday, April 13, 2015 10:51 AM

BaltACD

Certified Company Track Inspectors are required to inspect their MAIN LINE tracks twice weekly.  Signal Maintainers must inspect their power oprated switches weekly - as well as respond to signal troubles whenever they occurr.

The various Vendor and Company testing equipment use any and all techniques that have been proven to reliably find critical defects - laser, ultrasonics, acoustic, infra-red.  The critical element for any testing technique is for it to be reliable in actually finding the defects it is looking for, without false positives.  Various testing techniques move across the property at various track speeds from 60 MPH (where permitted) on down to 10 MPH.  Needless to say, it becomes more difficult to provide track time to slow speed testing.  The frequency of the testing, is determined by the speed, tonnage and type traffic a line handles with lines handling passenger, oil and HAZMAT getting tested at a much higher frequency.

Balt,

Thanks for the reply, more things are going on with track testing than I was aware of. FWIW, false positives are also a big issue in my line of work.

- Erik

  • Member since
    September 2011
  • 6,449 posts
Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, April 13, 2015 2:30 PM

Euclid, I believe the Forum rules prevents us from copying or using large chunks of copyrighted material, so I will wait until you have read the article.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Monday, April 13, 2015 5:57 PM

A few of the test vehicles the carriers are using

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,022 posts
Posted by tree68 on Monday, April 13, 2015 7:56 PM

I've ridden in one of the FRA cars - don't recall if it was that one.  In fact, I was the conductor of record for the trip.   Pretty cool stuff.  

 

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Monday, April 13, 2015 8:34 PM

BaltACD
[snipped - PDN] . . . Additionally various track inspection vehicles crisscross the sytem to hopefully find defects before they become failures and get them replaced.  The test vehicles are from various track maintenance vendors as well as the company's own test trains and vehicles.

At present, on my division, there are 8 track inspection vehicles working on my division alone - my division is not unique from the 10 operating divisions that make up the company. . . .

Are those 8 track inspection vehicles the Hi-Rail type, or the type that you pictured above, or a combination ? (Thanks for that, by the way).   

The Hi-Rail inspections are good for catching some things, especially if the inspector is familiar with the territory and can see certain track parameters gradually progress or get worse, such as the rail wear or wheel track pattern, soft subgrade that creates mud holes, 'static' wide gage, ponded water from blocked culverts or beaver dams, incipient landslides, settled or misalighed track, larger defects or variations in track geometry parameters, etc. 

What they can't detect is internal rail defects until they progress to the upper surface of the rail (there are some that 'come out' under the head or in the web area, etc.), gauge that goes wide only under a substantial lateral load (like a locomotive truck), not a pick-up truck ('dynamic' wide gauge), spongy subgrade that deflects only under heavy axle loads, ties that are rotten internally (without an on-foot inspection), etc. 

Most of these latter ones require either a 'heavy' track geometry car with the lateral pressure (high "L/V ratio" capability), or one of the rail inspection vehicles with magna-flux, ultrasonic, laser, etc., depending on whether it's looking for internal rail flaws, external rail wear patterns, etc.  But even the best of those have difficulties at joints (insulated and compromise even in CWR track), and especially turnouts - the switch points and frogs. 

What's needed - IMHO - is more frequent inspections with these more capable vehicles, until the defect or variation rate is very low - to a statistical irreducible minimum (not quite zero).  But as BaltACD notes, good luck getting the track time to do the inspections and fix the defects/ variations, let alone the money for the cars, their operation, and fixing the defects/ variations. 

- Paul North.      

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Cardiff, CA
  • 2,930 posts
Posted by erikem on Monday, April 13, 2015 11:29 PM

Paul_D_North_Jr

 What they can't detect is internal rail defects until they progress to the upper surface of the rail (there are some that 'come out' under the head or in the web area, etc.), gauge that goes wide only under a substantial lateral load (like a locomotive truck), not a pick-up truck ('dynamic' wide gauge), spongy subgrade that deflects only under heavy axle loads, ties that are rotten internally (without an on-foot inspection), etc. 

Most of these latter ones require either a 'heavy' track geometry car with the lateral pressure (high "L/V ratio" capability), or one of the rail inspection vehicles with magna-flux, ultrasonic, laser, etc., depending on whether it's looking for internal rail flaws, external rail wear patterns, etc.  But even the best of those have difficulties at joints (insulated and compromise even in CWR track), and especially turnouts - the switch points and frogs. 

That's why I was musing about laser induced ultrasound - should be able to detect internal defects while traveling faster than the contact making ultrasound. I saw a presentation over 10 years ago about using laser induced ultrasound to measure wall thickness of seamless tubing immediately after it was extruded. It's quite possible that the laser ultrsound may not detect as small a defect as the contacting type, but if the increased detection vehicle speed allows for more frequent inspections...

I'd suspect a well instrumented locomotive, e.g. 3 axis accelerometers on each axle, could give useful info on the health of the ties and roadbed.

 - Erik

 

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,921 posts
Posted by MP173 on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:10 AM

While the oil patch drilling activity is down, the amount of oil handled by rail (CBR) is still strong.

YTD - CSX up 18.6% 2015 vs 2014

YTD - NS up 26% 2015 vs 2014.

My guess is the comparisons will level out in the 3Q when drilling activity started to drop. Still, both NS and CSX are handling in excess of 4000 loads per week.

Meanwhile, coal volumes continue to drop...

Ed

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:18 AM

Question for Mudchicken -

What kinds of quality testing is done upon new rail by the manufacturers before it is released from the manufacturing facility?

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 3,231 posts
Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 8:27 PM

Since we were on the subject of SPVs on another thread, here is a picture of FRA track geometry car T-10.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=431560&nseq=3

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: NW Wisconsin
  • 3,857 posts
Posted by beaulieu on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:58 PM

MP173

My guess is the comparisons will level out in the 3Q when drilling activity started to drop. Still, both NS and CSX are handling in excess of 4000 loads per week.

Drilling activity may or may not level off in the 3rd Quarter.

See this RBN Energy article  "I Cannot Complete..."

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 4,557 posts
Posted by Convicted One on Friday, April 17, 2015 1:33 PM

BaltACD
If you ship a allowed commodity in an approved shipping container, the carriers cannot refuse it. Bakken Crude in a DOT 111 tank car is an allowed commodity in an approved shipping container - no matter how explosive it may be.

 

Contributory negligence? Maybe that needs to be part of the equation? Perhaps part of the liability needs to be spread around to include the sanctioning body that approved inadequate lading/equipment combination? Hide out underneath the old government umbrella!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Friday, April 17, 2015 9:03 PM

Convicted One
 
BaltACD
If you ship a allowed commodity in an approved shipping container, the carriers cannot refuse it. Bakken Crude in a DOT 111 tank car is an allowed commodity in an approved shipping container - no matter how explosive it may be.

 

 

Contributory negligence? Maybe that needs to be part of the equation? Perhaps part of the liability needs to be spread around to include the sanctioning body that approved inadequate lading/equipment combination? Hide out underneath the old government umbrella!

Rewrite the transprtation laws!

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy