https://youtu.be/9DL-653nOvY
Rail traffic north of Albuquerque is sporadic but on this fine Saturday morning in March, Northbound Lamy Local, led by BNSF 1906, a rebuilt EMD SD39-2 built in November of 1980 as ATSF 5134 and followed by BNSF 1890, an EMD SD40-2, built as ATSF 5116 (SD40-2), in October 1979, pulls a consist of two grain cars and 6 asphalt tank cars. The train has a red signal on the main line as it awaits NMRX 105, the southbound Railrunner to depart the station at Sandoval 550 and take the siding at downtown Bernalillo.After getting a green signal, the Lamy Local proceeds northbound to Rosario, NM.While researching these two BNSF engines, I came across a couple pictures of them together in California.
Thanks for the link. It's nice to see that at least a little bit of freight is moving over part of that line. Wouldn't we love to see a couple of unit trains to/from Colorado having to go through there every day!
But there seem to be huge economic forces weighing against the long-term viability of the Raton Pass route. The passenger business just isn't going to pay the bills to keep it viable up and over to Trinidad. It's not hard to imagine some of it turned into another Tennessee Pass line--not torn up, just basically abandoned in place.
The Raton Pass mainline is a critical link for future rail passenger service between Denver and Albuquerque. What gets me is that predecessor ATSF offered reliable service between Denver and Southern California and yet BNSF can't?
I'd venture to guess that there will never be rail service between Denver and Albuquerque. There's no market for it and the stretch between Raton and Trinidad is so steep that even Amtrak takes an hour to cover those 20 miles.
ATSF offered rail service from Chicago to LA, via Albuquerque along the northern route in New Mexico and was considered to be outstanding passenger service. Having ridden on the Super Chief growing up, I can attest to that. ATSF never went through Denver.
Denver and Rio Grande Western operated the Rio Grande Zephyr along the route from Denver to Salt Lake, going through some of the most beautiful country in the US. In 1988 it purchased the Southern Pacific and eventually merged with the Union Pacific. The California Zephyr runs along that route from Chicago to San Francisco.
When ATSF and BNSF merged, it gave BNSF other trackage in eastern New Mexico, where it runs north/south freight over instead of the steep grades from Albuquerque to Raton. The only train that runs north of Lamy, New Mexico, is the Southwest Chief so there is no reason why BNSF wants to maintain that trackage for two trains a day.
The latest I've heard is that Colorado, New Mexico, and Kansas will probably figure out a way to pay BNSF to keep the line open but I don't think it will be decided until next year. I'll keep the group posted as news becomes available.
If my various resources are correct, through service or even good connecting service between Denver and Southern California on Santa Fe was pretty much gone prior to Amtrak.
Los Angeles Rams Guy The Raton Pass mainline is a critical link for future rail passenger service between Denver and Albuquerque. What gets me is that predecessor ATSF offered reliable service between Denver and Southern California and yet BNSF can't? If you are ONLY talking about passenger service that has been Amtrak's responsibility since 1971. If you are including freight service, that service remains but by a different route. It now goes through Las Animas Jct. to Amarillo where it joins the Transcon.
If you are ONLY talking about passenger service that has been Amtrak's responsibility since 1971. If you are including freight service, that service remains but by a different route. It now goes through Las Animas Jct. to Amarillo where it joins the Transcon.
Yard Limit I'd venture to guess that there will never be rail service between Denver and Albuquerque. There's no market for it and the stretch between Raton and Trinidad is so steep that even Amtrak takes an hour to cover those 20 miles. ATSF offered rail service from Chicago to LA, via Albuquerque along the northern route in New Mexico and was considered to be outstanding passenger service. Having ridden on the Super Chief growing up, I can attest to that. ATSF never went through Denver. Denver and Rio Grande Western operated the Rio Grande Zephyr along the route from Denver to Salt Lake, going through some of the most beautiful country in the US. In 1988 it purchased the Southern Pacific and eventually merged with the Union Pacific. The California Zephyr runs along that route from Chicago to San Francisco. When ATSF and BNSF merged, it gave BNSF other trackage in eastern New Mexico, where it runs north/south freight over instead of the steep grades from Albuquerque to Raton. The only train that runs north of Lamy, New Mexico, is the Southwest Chief so there is no reason why BNSF wants to maintain that trackage for two trains a day. The latest I've heard is that Colorado, New Mexico, and Kansas will probably figure out a way to pay BNSF to keep the line open but I don't think it will be decided until next year. I'll keep the group posted as news becomes available.
I wonder: will it still be maintained with ABS? and with CTC in at least one section? I really wonder about the need for CTC when there is only one train a day each way.
Johnny
Thanks for this update! I hadn't heard the news. Here's another link: http://www.kmbc.com/news/amtrak-to-continue-operating-southwest-chief-route/32075744
I think I am correct about this: the only CTC between Newton, KS and Albuquerque is the 22 mile La Junta to Las Animas Jct. segment which BNSF uses for their very busy freight operations to Amarillo.
Perhaps the New Mexico RailRunner has CTC for their operations between Belen and Santa Fe.
https://www.acm.jhu.edu//~sthurmovik/movies/New_Mexico_Rail_Runner_%20TT_n_GO_1_120608.pdf
Everything you wanted to know about the line.
Altamont Press' Central West Timetable, published four years ago shows CTC from West Trinidad to Springer, with 2MT West Trinidad to Wooten; this may have been discontinued in the last four years. It also shows ATS between La Junta and Trinidad.
As a passenger route, won't the line need PTC?
Thanks, Yard Limit, for the Rail Runner ETT. I had forgotten about their service between Santa Fe and Albuquerque.They can, indeed, make use of the CTC on the track they use.
Yard Limit I'd venture to guess that there will never be rail service between Denver and Albuquerque. There's no market for it and the stretch between Raton and Trinidad is so steep that even Amtrak takes an hour to cover those 20 miles.
Have you been on I-25 lately from Denver southward toward Colorado Springs and Pueblo? If not, I'd check it out and am guessing you might want to revise your statement.
Yes, I 25 is very busy between Denver and Colorado Springs but much less busy as you go on to Pueblo. South of Pueblo the 100 miles of I-25 to the New Mexico State Line is not close to being busy. And I-25 from the CO State Line to Santa Fe is almost a lonesome road.
It is 435 +- miles from Denver to Alb. via I-25 and the busy segments are the 60 miles between Alb. and Santa Fe and the 100 miles between Denver and Pueblo.
A railroad passenger operation would be both longer in distance and much longer in time. And it would not go through Santa Fe without a change of trains to the Roadrunner. If this could ever be justified it would be after those of us posting here are long gone.
I used to live in Denver and had family in Albuquerque so I've driven that stretch of I25 probably a hundred times. It's awful! It's one of the reasons I moved back to ABQ..., that and old parents.
I solved the I25 problem by going into a partnership with three other guys on a Mooney M20J. I could fly from BJC to ABQ in 1 hour and 45 minutes on a good day.
A better solution for the rest of us would be having the light rail in Denver being extended to Colorado Springs and then Pueblo. It should also be extended up to Boulder for that matter.
I stand by my statement but I agree that doing anything to take traffic off of I25 for that stretch would be a good thing.
Los Angeles Rams Guy The Raton Pass mainline is a critical link for future rail passenger service between Denver and Albuquerque. What gets me is that predecessor ATSF offered reliable service between Denver and Southern California and yet BNSF can't?
Assuming you're not talking about passenger service which BNSF and other freight railroads do not operate, what evidence have you that BNSF is NOT offering reliable service between Denver and Southern California?
Mark Meyer
What freight traffic is there between Denver and LA, other than Coors beer?
The only ATSF passenger service to Denver was the daily connection to the main line at La Junta. It was combined with tha C&S train between Denver and Trinidad until the end of C&S pssgr service in 1967. From '67 to '71 it was an ATSF-only train.
Deggesty Altamont Press' Central West Timetable, published four years ago shows CTC from West Trinidad to Springer, with 2MT West Trinidad to Wooten; this may have been discontinued in the last four years. It also shows ATS between La Junta and Trinidad.
TCS (antiquated) still out there, status quo. Converting TCS to ABS isn't cost justified given the situation and New Mexico's littany of broken contract promises and hyper-reliance on Uncle $ugar. If premium speed intermodal ever makes a comeback, the thinking might change.
This bill was introduced into the NM legislature. It calls for evaluating the possibility of selling the assets of the Railrunner. http://www.nmlegis.gov/Sessions/15%20Regular/memorials/house/HM127.pdf
The bill talks about the costs of the Railrunner, but does not say if ridership went up or down since it replaced the bus. At the end it asks NM DOT to only look at the costs for the Railrunner, and the benefits of re-established bus service, rather than a cost/benefit comparison of both.
VerMontanan Los Angeles Rams Guy The Raton Pass mainline is a critical link for future rail passenger service between Denver and Albuquerque. What gets me is that predecessor ATSF offered reliable service between Denver and Southern California and yet BNSF can't? Assuming you're not talking about passenger service which BNSF and other freight railroads to not operate, what evidence have you that BNSF is NOT offering reliable service between Denver and Southern California?
Assuming you're not talking about passenger service which BNSF and other freight railroads to not operate, what evidence have you that BNSF is NOT offering reliable service between Denver and Southern California?
Yes, was referring to passenger service......IMHO, the Raton Pass mainline is simply a critical link that cannot be ignored and it becomes that much more important once the Front Range cities of Denver, Colorado Springs and Pueblo are figured into the equation.
As for BNSF's intermodal service out of Denver, I believe that they do offer "service" out to Southern California utilizing their trackage rights over UP west of Denver. How "reliable" it is is anyone's guess. My point is that the former ATSF had service over Raton Pass and they seemed to be able to make do okay.
Los Angeles Rams Guy Yes, was referring to passenger service......IMHO, the Raton Pass mainline is simply a critical link that cannot be ignored and it becomes that much more important once the Front Range cities of Denver, Colorado Springs and Pueblo are figured into the equation. As for BNSF's intermodal service out of Denver, I believe that they do offer "service" out to Southern California utilizing their trackage rights over UP west of Denver. How "reliable" it is is anyone's guess. My point is that the former ATSF had service over Raton Pass and they seemed to be able to make do okay.
Your post is confusing then. You admit your reference was to passenger service, so it seems odd that you're evidently complaining that BNSF can't offer passenger service comparable to what ATSF did. BNSF and all the other Class I railroads don't operate their own intercity passenger trains. Only Amtrak does.
You have not answered you think BNSF is not offering reliable service.
Any traffic between Denver and Southern California operates via Amarillo which would be infinitely more reliable than a route via Raton Pass. Such trains are much cheaper to operate, and likely faster and more reliable since locomotive power is not unlimited and Raton Pass takes over three times as much.
VerMontanan Los Angeles Rams Guy Yes, was referring to passenger service......IMHO, the Raton Pass mainline is simply a critical link that cannot be ignored and it becomes that much more important once the Front Range cities of Denver, Colorado Springs and Pueblo are figured into the equation. As for BNSF's intermodal service out of Denver, I believe that they do offer "service" out to Southern California utilizing their trackage rights over UP west of Denver. How "reliable" it is is anyone's guess. My point is that the former ATSF had service over Raton Pass and they seemed to be able to make do okay. Your post is confusing then. You admit your reference was to passenger service, so it seems odd that you're evidently complaining that BNSF can't offer passenger service comparable to what ATSF did. BNSF and all the other Class I railroads don't operate their own intercity passenger trains. Only Amtrak does. You have not answered you think BNSF is not offering reliable service. Any traffic between Denver and Southern California operates via Amarillo which would be infinitely more reliable than a route via Raton Pass. Such trains are much cheaper to operate, and likely faster and more reliable since locomotive power is not unlimited and Raton Pass takes over three times as much.
Thanks for the clarification on that....Actually, that's what I was thinking but sometimes my head doesn't always think so clearly in the early A.M.
But the routing over to Las Animas and thence down to the Transcon mainline at Amarillo still seems like a roundabout way to do it........I've heard the arguments about the grades on Raton and Glorieta passes but, as a former ATSF Roadmaster told me not so long ago, it's not the grades that are the problem. Rather, it's the bridges which, for the time being, do not allow for double-stack movement. Maybe BNSF can avoid the grades via Las Animas and down to Amarillo, but at what cost?
Maybe the Raton Pass mainline will never become the funnel for freight traffic like I would like it to be but it's definitely a key link for future passenger service from Denver or other points.
Los Angeles Rams GuyBut the routing over to Las Animas and thence down to the Transcon mainline at Amarillo still seems like a roundabout way to do it........I've heard the arguments about the grades on Raton and Glorieta passes but, as a former ATSF Roadmaster told me not so long ago, it's not the grades that are the problem. Rather, it's the bridges which, for the time being, do not allow for double-stack movement. Maybe BNSF can avoid the grades via Las Animas and down to Amarillo, but at what cost? Maybe the Raton Pass mainline will never become the funnel for freight traffic like I would like it to be but it's definitely a key link for future passenger service from Denver or other points.
What may not be understood regarding the Las Animas - Amarillo route is that this was the route selected after the SF-BN merger for loaded coal trains enroute to Texas destinations. These formerly went through Trinidad and Dalhart, TX to Amarillo, a much more difficult route for the heavy loads. Now the loads go via Las Animas and the empties through Trinidad.
To make this work the Las Animas route was upgraded, especially that portion south from Las Animas Jct. So with the Las Animas route established and necessarly well maintained it was quite logical and economicaly justified to use it for all traffic. The need for fewer locomotives and the roadway maintenance avoidance on the Raton Line made the decision an easy one.
(1) had ATSF not rehabbed Las Animas Junction to Amarillo in '76-'78, the whole issue might be moot. It went from 90# jointed on poor ties in the dirt to 119# CWR on good ties plus the entire line was sledded and reballasted. The line was designed to a high standard in 1932-1937 and has never been signalled.
(2) Faster than the northern transcon? - Nope.
(3)More reliable than the northern transcon? - Nope ....especially when the operating bubbas and their competing current of traffic regimes compete. [Amarillo to Denver freight frequently is the loser in these operating dust-ups)
(4)Easier on the operating dept? - Yep (With apologies to Gilpin Hill, Harbord Hill, the junctions at Las Animas, Springfield and Boise City which have challenges)...You have to have a qualified trainmaster to handle the northern transcon. Any "trained-monkey" could usually handle the Boise City Sub...
Boise City, OK was laid out to be in the center of a large figure "X" with a major yard and engine terminal. One side of the X is gone (incomplete Colmor Cut-Off), its opposite side is the Cimarron Valley RR.
(5) Easier on fuel consumption and power requirements? - Depends.
If you start working-in Pueblo to Albuquerque into the equation, you introduce the stupid poor C&S between Pueblo and Trinidad and things change again.
mudchicken Deggesty Altamont Press' Central West Timetable, published four years ago shows CTC from West Trinidad to Springer, with 2MT West Trinidad to Wooten; this may have been discontinued in the last four years. It also shows ATS between La Junta and Trinidad. Closer to the truth, but you also left out the "Rowe Island", from Rowe through Apache Canyon to Lamy. (Its reason for being long gone) TCS (antiquated) still out there, status quo. Converting TCS to ABS isn't cost justified given the situation and New Mexico's littany of broken contract promises and hyper-reliance on Uncle $ugar. If premium speed intermodal ever makes a comeback, the thinking might change.
Closer to the truth, but you also left out the "Rowe Island", from Rowe through Apache Canyon to Lamy. (Its reason for being long gone)
VerMont: Your calculations are WAY out of whack. DC and MC were part of Team Chico for many years and our careers overlapped. I have seen enough detour trains over the Northern Transcon over the years (including loaded coal trains going west over the hill) to know your claims are off base.
"at least a factor of 3 or 4" - If you had said maybe 1.5 or 2.0, I might have believed you and that factor would have stretched it at that. If you get somebody that understands the hill and motive power, you get pretty interesting outcomes. Throwing more fuel and horsepower at a constraint doesn't solve the problems down there. The now long retired RFE/TM/Asst Supt at Raton (HGP) could make that place dance and helped write the book on RCE/DPU operations. BNSF will be lucky to ever find another like him. The hill just doesn't fit into BNSF's cookie-cutter operations scheme any more and that's a shame. The hill needed to be treated with respect. The current bunch is terrified of the place and it's largely unwarranted. (Passenger or Freight, there is a science and an art to what goes on....and the same can be said for Cajon, but there is no alternate BNSF route there.)
Hint: RSD-15's, SD26's and SD39's called the place home. It wasn't because it was a backwater assignment. They replaced SD40-2, SD45's etc on virtually a 1 to 1 basis and it worked really well, La Junta - Belen. The only time I ever saw the amount of power you claim would be required was on light engine hops and power repositioning for the mines. Bigger concerns were always train handling and making sure d/b's were cut out like they were supposed to be. The main problem with detours was always running out of qualified crews.
Johnny - There was considerably more ATS out there. It was retired in pieces as it failed starting in the mid-1990's. (It would help too if the Amtrak power would quit throwing ATS shoes like a bratty little kid.)
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