CN Iowa Line

[blhanel]

From a practical standpoint, I don't think there's room for the terminal in the CN yard, unless they fill in some of Cedar Lake.  That yard can get pretty full from time to time with covered hoppers and tanks.

[greyhounds]

blhanel

From a practical standpoint, I don't think there's room for the terminal in the CN yard, unless they fill in some of Cedar Lake.  That yard can get pretty full from time to time with covered hoppers and tanks.

Can you tell us which one of these rail yards is the CN yard?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/418+2nd+St+NE,+Cedar+Rapids,+IA+52401/@41.9861743,-91.6703068,17z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x87e4f753fa80f4c5:0xf3303b194958d7f

It impractical to fill in the lake.  The project would be tied up in court for 10 years.

[ccm]

Hello all, this is my first post here.

The CN yard is in the middle, pointing NNE toward the intersection of G+12th, with the Iowa Northern yard on the left and the ex-CNW North yard on the right.

[ccm]

Although, I should add that the UP yard is 4 miles southwest (north of the Iowa Interstate yard), where many intermodals pass through running between Chicago and the west coast.

[jeffhergert]

ccm

Hello all, this is my first post here.

The CN yard is in the middle, pointing NNE toward the intersection of G+12th, with the Iowa Northern yard on the left and the ex-CNW North yard on the right.

 

I know I've been away from the CR area for a while now, but I think you better try again.

Jeff

[Deggesty]

jeffhergert

 

ccm

Hello all, this is my first post here.

The CN yard is in the middle, pointing NNE toward the intersection of G+12th, with the Iowa Northern yard on the left and the ex-CNW North yard on the right.

 

 

 

 

I know I've been away from the CR area for a while now, but I think you better try again.

 

Jeff

 

I'm away from home, so I cannot give an answer--but if any of you has an SPV atlas with Iowa or with Nebraska, you may find the answer there.

 

Please, please let Spel Czech rise up and make itself known!

We could use a grammar checker, too (and my omitting "any" the first time would have been caught).

[CNSF]

I don't know, that lines up with what I'm seeing on both my North American Railroad Map software and Google Earth/Streetview. The westernmost of the three yards does have a lot of CN and Canadian government hoppers in it, but there's also a yard office with a Rock Island logo, and the tracks to the northwest follow the Iowa Northern route. Meanwhile, the small middle yard has a couple of black locomotives with red-orange ends in it, and its trackage to the north looks correct for CN/IC.

[jeffhergert]

While the part about the CN being the middle yard running diagonally is correct.  I think it might be part of the old WCF&N. The rest isn't, unless there have been some massive sales/swaps in CR.  

The UP's North yard is the complex to the left, running kind of North-South between the river and Cedar Lake.  It's the old RI yard that the CNW bought after the RI's demise.  

The yard parallel to I-380 on the south side of Cedar Lake is also CN.  I think it is the original IC yard.  Part of it may have been MILW way back, as they came through that way from Marion toward Ottumwa.  The picture that Greyhounds linked to I believe is taken in that yard. 

Jeff

[greyhounds]

jeffhergert

The yard parallel to I-380 on the south side of Cedar Lake is also CN.  I think it is the original IC yard.  Part of it may have been MILW way back, as they came through that way from Marion toward Ottumwa. 

Thanks Jeff.

(I wish I knew how to post a Power Point slide as a visual on this forum so I could show this.)

A close in Google satelite view of the yard near I-380 shows two yard tracks taken up on the I-380 side.  The outside track near I-380 is still there but it deadends in to some trees and, in the Google photo, is empty except for one car.

From the satelite image I make the length available for each track to be 900 ft. +.  So each track, if restored, could hold three five platform spine cars (260 ft. each) with a capacity of 15 teed up 53 ft. containers on flatcars per track. We're shooting for a 40 container capacity so there is room.  We've even got space for an extra car to create some "surge capacity".

You know the motto of this imaginary project:  "Don't get hung up on problems, solve them." 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/418+2nd+St+NE,+Cedar+Rapids,+IA+52401/@41.9874377,-91.6635451,591m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x87e4f753fa80f4c5:0xf3303b194958d7f

 

[blhanel]

You're correct, Jeff- CN will frequently use the south side yard as their inbound tracks, especially if they have a long train.  But the diagonal yard is their main storage yard for outbound traffic.

Note: the building between the two yards near the throat is the old Alliant Power Plant/Steam Generator, which was irreparably damaged by the 2008 flood and is being torn down.

[MP173]

So, let's put this in dollars and cents.

If it were up to you, would you invest your capital in such a project.  I am not talking about the actual railroad, that is capital intensive, but let's say:

1.  Soliciting the business in Iowa and backhaul from east coast.

2.  Leasing or purchasing refer trailers or containers.

3.  Arranging for drayage on both ends.

4.  Administration.

Would you throw down $2million to start this up?

Ed

[greyhounds]

MP173

So, let's put this in dollars and cents. If it were up to you, would you invest your capital in such a project.  I am not talking about the actual railroad, that is capital intensive, but let's say: 1.  Soliciting the business in Iowa and backhaul from east coast. 2.  Leasing or purchasing refer trailers or containers. 3.  Arranging for drayage on both ends. 4.  Administration. Would you throw down $2million to start this up? Ed

Ed,

We're not finished putting it together yet.

Basically you've described the hurdles involved in any intermodal business development.  (except for reefers instead of dry vans)  It's something that's done regularly.

As for the $2 million, it's all going to depend on acceptance by the three targeted main shippers.  If they make some kind of commitment to use the service at the required volume the money should be available.  I certainly do not have $2 million.  But there are entities that are looking for places to invest such money.  If they see a good potential for a good return on their investment.  

I see this concept as having good fundamentals.  It's got the length of haul needed for rail intermodal to be competitive with motor freight and the truck driver shortage is only going to get worse.  Quality intermodal service is already available east of Chicago and this business would just be incremental to that existing service.

Someday, maybe, we'll see.

[MP173]

I think the biggest hurdle to this working is the Chicago hurdle...and it is pretty big.

I enjoy looking at these issues and this one has certainly caused us to scratch our collective heads and examine cost structures and challenges.  I would not put up any capital (of my own or that in which I would be held accountable for) in this project.  The rewards for the risk involved are simply not there.  I would demand a very high rate of return to compensate for the risk (Chicago).

Also, consider the recent bankruptcy of a fruit/produce expeditor when BNSF suddenly decided it was much more lucrative to haul explosive oil rather than greens....and I cannot say that I blame BSNF for their decision.

CSX and NS both run hand off intermodal trains from UP and BNSF in Chicago.  These are volume driven trains, primarily with overseas containers from UP and overseas plus JBH from BNSF.  These are also specific destination trains, primarily to Harrisburg area and other vast distribution center clusters.  I dont see the volume yet, nor do I see the cooperation between CN and the eastern carriers.

Indiana Railroad/CN is a great example of what can occur with established trains and capacity...along with lower valued time insensitive freight.  Meat in my opinion doesnt fit that model.

Keep up the conversation tho, it has been a great one.

Ed

[CNSF]

It's occurred to me that the CN Iowa line doesn't necessarily need to play a role in the conversion of Iowa meat to intermodal service. One thing we learned from the Santa Fe-JB Hunt joint venture is that long highway drays which are in-line with the overall movement work quite well. Most of the big surge in Hunt volumes on Santa Fe in the first year or two were not Chicago - California moves stolen from Pacer or other intermodal players, they were moves between California and places like Toledo, Columbus, Indy, Louisville, Birmingham, and so on, where the length of haul for the eastern road had always been too short for them to go after it, so the truckers were hauling it over the road all the way. We actually put a few substantial trucking companies which had focused on those types of lanes out of business, and several others managed to survive only by converting to intermodal themselves or shifting their focus to other, shorter lanes where there was little or no intermodal competition. With the right trucking partner, highway to Chicago and Omaha and rail beyond to markets in the northeast and on the west coast should work economically for the Iowa traffic. I'm a bit surprised no one's tried it.

[greyhounds]

CNSF

With the right trucking partner, highway to Chicago and Omaha and rail beyond to markets in the northeast and on the west coast should work economically for the Iowa traffic. I'm a bit surprised no one's tried it.

Oh, I once had the bright idea to do something like that.

There are four large meat plants reasonably close to Chicago:

1) Tyson in Geneseo, IL (Beef - I'm figuring about 2,500 head/day)

2) Tyson in Columbus Jct., IA (Pork - 9,500 head/day)

3) Smithfield/Farmland in Monmouth, IL (Pork - 10,400 head/day)

4) Jonsonville in Momence, IL and Watertown, WI (Pork - combined 2,300 head/day)

I conceptualized arranging funding for 25 or so refrigerated RoadRailers at $80,000 each.  (fat chance of that)  Then using existing Triple Crown service to move the meat to eastern population centers. (Truck to Chicago, Triple Crown train east of Chicago.) The 25 RoadRailers would be more or less a demonstration of the feasibility of such an intermodal movement of meat.

I decided to talk to Triple Crown first.  I wanted to see if they were receptive to putting privately owned reefers on their trains before I spent a lot of time doing research and working through the details.  They were not at all receptive.  The woman in Ft. Wayne wouldn't let me get beyond about three sentences.  She told me they did not handle temperature controlled shipments.

I tried to say:  "I know that but ..."  She would not let me get any further.  She just kept repeating with ever more emphasis that they would not handle the freight even if it showed up at their Chicago terminal in a RoadRailer vehicle.

After a few tries I just gave up.  Screw you lady and your Triple Crown trains.  This was basically no risk to Triple Crown.  And I couldn't even get the base concept outlined over the phone without being told an emphatic "NO".

Today, Triple Crown does offer refrigerated service.  In conventional TOFC trailers, not RoadRailers.  Maybe she didn't like the way I sounded.

 

[MP173]

The reply from Triple Crown should speak volumes....the financial reward does not meet the risk involved.

Good point CN on the JBH model.  I talked to an old acquaintance who was an over the road driver for ABF (great job, Teamster, line haul between terminals, etc) who recently retired.  His son is 28 and is a JBH OTR driver operating out of Chicago with a sleeper unit.  He handles intermodals within 400 miles of Chicago and really likes it.  

Watching NS intermodals with JBH units, it is obvious they concentrate of volume movements from key locations to a few terminals.  There are no JBH on the Detroit trains, but there are  on the Columbus, Ohio trains.  Why?  Lots of distribution centers in Columbus and the movements are coming on trains from BNSF.  The daily Detroit intermodal is usually overseas containers...probably auto parts and it is usually only about 50 containers per day.

You need volume in the intermodal business for it to work.  If you are going to lease refer units at $1500 per month....you better get 4 turns per month, maybe more.

ed

[CNSF]

I'm used to working with looonng railroads (see my moniker). The rail linehauls east of Chicago may not be long enough to support the long drays that worked for Hunt/Santa Fe in the other direction. Always admired/pitied my colleagues at Conrail intermodal. Not easy to make money on a 600-mile haul, especially when your railroad runs fast as molasses (and this was back in the 90's!) But they did a good job with what they had.