Norm48327 Firelock76 Don't forget the other oddball thing in the corporate world. Sometimes a person spectacularly good at his job WON'T get promoted out of it because those over him don't know who they'll replace him with who's as good! Found myself in that position once and the company came out the loser. I moved on, and there was no one to take my place.
Firelock76 Don't forget the other oddball thing in the corporate world. Sometimes a person spectacularly good at his job WON'T get promoted out of it because those over him don't know who they'll replace him with who's as good!
Don't forget the other oddball thing in the corporate world. Sometimes a person spectacularly good at his job WON'T get promoted out of it because those over him don't know who they'll replace him with who's as good!
Found myself in that position once and the company came out the loser. I moved on, and there was no one to take my place.
Bravo to you! Serves them right!
Firelock76Sometimes a person spectacularly good at his job WON'T get promoted out of it because those over him don't know who they'll replace him with who's as good!
Know of a supervisor, long passed, who gave glowing reviews to lousy employees and cruddy reviews to good employees - for that very reason.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Came across this link elsewhere. It's a Candian site for people to rate their employer. It's not just for railroads. You can go to the home page of this site and search all employers by business/industry classification and/or by province. I just linked to the CP thread.
http://www.ratemyemployer.ca/Employers/CF/CFCP-Chemin-de-fer-Canadien-Pacifique
FWIW.
Jeff
jeffhergert Came across this link elsewhere. It's a Candian site for people to rate their employer. It's not just for railroads. You can go to the home page of this site and search all employers by business/industry classification and/or by province. I just linked to the CP thread. http://www.ratemyemployer.ca/Employers/CF/CFCP-Chemin-de-fer-Canadien-Pacifique FWIW. Jeff
Johnny
What generally happens to pension contributions in the event of employment termination?
The take-away I got from some CN employees I knew was that the key word in Harrison's management style was "intimidation".
Edit: I forgot to include "fear".
Norm
What I want to see is a lot more statistics for this railroad, which go below the thin financial surface veneer and tell the true tale.
For example, is track maintenance being deferred ? The rate of tie and rail replacement and surfacing miles per year - as compared to, say, the last 10 years - should be a good indicator. Similarly, the number of locomotives and cars needing repair, average age of the fleet (replacement rate), etc.
Others might be average train velocity, dwell time in yards, cars on line, carloads per year, car-miles per day, number of employees, Gross Ton-Miles per Train-Hour, etc.
Just as a doctor can't tell the true health of a patient from his blood pressure alone, these other measures need to be looked at to gauge the condition of a railroad.
I would not be surprised to find the EHH and cohorts are just running fewer and longer/ heavier trains to drive up the GTM/TH and drive down the Operating Ratio. They may be 'cherry-picking' to keep the most lucrative traffic for those ratios - perhaps 'captive' traffic in the short-term. There are a couple problems with that philosophy:
This will bear watching - time will tell. Fortunately (?), there was enough of this in the 1960's and 1970's that the symptoms are fairly well known by now.
- Paul North.
DeggestyVery interesting. I did not read all of ratings on the first page, but there is the common theme: CP management does not know how to manage employees decently.
I dunno, I rode CN courtesy of VIA after Hunter Harrison took over and the CN / VIA employees had all sorts of conspiracy theories. Hunter was pulling superior forged Canadian rail for relay rail on the Illinois Central. Hunter was creating safety risks, etc, etc. A good portion of this is Canadian employees got used to the utility atmosphere before where productivity wasn't a large concern and they didn't like the change. Ever work with Canadians before? I had to when I worked at General Motors HQ in Detroit. Canadians are closer to Europe than the United States in work ethic and are pretty laid back on the job. On Salary jobs they expect some overtime consideration if they work more than 40 hours a week.
You'll pick up on these things after a while. Not a surprise to me at all they do not like American management style and attention to becomming more efficient.
Ulrich What generally happens to pension contributions in the event of employment termination?
"Termination" in employer terms can cover everything from being fired to an employee being layed off. So you have to me more specific.
Some harsh forms of termination the employer can keep the pension. If your layed off you can ask for and recieve a lump sum IRA rollover of the current value of your pension funds but in the case of a rollover most firms require that you be vested in the plan at least 5 years.........otherwise the company keeps it.
I made quite a chunk of change in IT jumping from companies with pension plans every 5 years and asking for the lump sum payout to rollover into my 401k. It's not a trivial amount of money even after only 5 years contribution and growth. You would be surprised how many people would leave at 4.5 years or 4.75 years and just leave the pension funds for the employer to keep. Unbelieveable but it happens.
CMStPnP A good portion of this is Canadian employees got used to the utility atmosphere before where productivity wasn't a large concern and they didn't like the change. Ever work with Canadians before? I had to when I worked at General Motors HQ in Detroit. Canadians are closer to Europe than the United States in work ethic and are pretty laid back on the job. On Salary jobs they expect some overtime consideration if they work more than 40 hours a week. You'll pick up on these things after a while. Not a surprise to me at all they do not like American management style and attention to becomming more efficient.
CM...
I think that Mr Harrison's management style is rather 'excessive', even for Americans. I think PDN (above) makes a number of good points about a variety of CP's metrics he would like to see before he makes an informed comment on Mr Harrison's managment of CP. I concur with him.
I think also you misrepresent the work ethic of many hard working and productive Canadians.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
For those of you interested, all the numbers are here:
http://www.cpr.ca/en/investors/earnings-releases
I’m sorry if I offended environmentalists with my analogy of “clear-cutting” the trees off the right of way. It was meant tongue in cheek to get people interested in this topic. I understand the purpose of clearing the right of way. It is a very noticeable change where I am. The trees are all gone.
Comparing the difference between American and Canadian work ethics was not foreseen by me. I do agree that Canadians are more laid back than Americans in general, it only makes sense our work ethic might be laid back too. At the end of the day I think we all want the same from our careers.
Recently, working at CP has been very stressful. Pay cuts, lousy management skills, and lack of communication, have all conspired to cause me to think twice about leaving. Instead of throwing away all that I have built in my many years of service at CP, I decided to educate myself at as to what is happening. Shame, one would think my company would want to educate me about the changes we are going through.
I got my hands on a copy of “How We Work and Why.” Though it was written while EHH was at CN, the transformation we are going through at CP from a “scheduled railroad” to a “precision railroad” is the same as what happened at CN. We are just doing it 10+ years later.
First, I believe that CP would have gone broke if EHH did not step up and take over. This statement would obviously be very unpopular among my coworkers if I said it to them, but I look at it like this. When EHH took over the operating ratio was very high. I think highest of all class 1s. CNs was very low. Best of all class 1s. From my position here, I could see CN cherry picking which business it wanted from CP. CP could not compete. If CN wanted the business, all they had to do was price lower than CP. CP was dying.
I think the next couple of years will be more interesting than people expect. Now that CP has its costs under control and the operating ratio competitive with CN’s, CP will be able to compete for some of the business it has lost over the last few years. Of course the talk of merger is interesting too but it is not the only opportunity CP has in the short-term.
There are two things that I believe need to be fixed if CP is to realize its full potential and to start getting some of its lost business back.
First, stopping treating employees like crap. When employees perceive that they are being treated poorly, they will leave. This is what happened. We have lost so many employees (good and bad), that we can only maintain the status quo (at least where I work. Cannot speak at network level). I see we are trying to bring more people onboard, but they all soon leave as they don’t want to be treated like crap and lied to and bullied by poor management techniques.
Second, to fix the first problem above, start honest communications. Specifically, condense EHH’s book and teach it to everybody. Even if it means seminars for a half-day or full-day. Bite the bullet and teach everybody what the new CP is about. Teach the basics of “precision railroading”. At least give everybody a chance to understand.
As always the people here have lots of insight and experience in all related fields. Thanks for helping me get this off my chest.
cptrainmanThere are two things that I believe need to be fixed if CP is to realize its full potential and to start getting some of its lost business back. First, stopping treating employees like crap. When employees perceive that they are being treated poorly, they will leave. This is what happened. We have lost so many employees (good and bad), that we can only maintain the status quo (at least where I work. Cannot speak at network level). I see we are trying to bring more people onboard, but they all soon leave as they don’t want to be treated like crap and lied to and bullied by poor management techniques. Second, to fix the first problem above, start honest communications. Specifically, condense EHH’s book and teach it to everybody. Even if it means seminars for a half-day or full-day. Bite the bullet and teach everybody what the new CP is about. Teach the basics of “precision railroading”. At least give everybody a chance to understand.
CPRT
You sound like a guy who takes his work seriously and wants to deal as constructively with the changes at CP as you can....even to going back to read Mr Harrison's rationale and outline for changes at CN. You've got a lot of 'skin in the game' as I see it and you really want to understand the changes you face. I applaud you.
I think Mr Harrison's management style is 'excessive' (for lack of a better word). You have outlined in some detail the ways in which this is so in your work environment. Bullying, treating people poorly and less than honestly and shredding contracts certainly won't produce a good, stable workforce much less a good working environment over the long term.
My impression of him has always been that of a person whose goal is to get the company profitable and efficient. Fair enough. However, his view of labour relations probably was in vogue 100+ years ago. Corporate change can occur in a variety of ways. Mr Harrison's style is one way of getting things done successfully....but it is by no means the only one.
He's successful at turning things around, yes, and a tyrant of sorts (wouldn't be surprised if he's kind of an egotist) as well. It's clearly his preferred way of getting attention, getting his way and his agenda moved forward. He's said as much publicly on previous occasions.
No surprise there. CN was a hard place to work when he was in charge according to people I know who worked there during his time. They were glad to see his back.
His successor at CN, Mr Mongeau, is focused on continuing to run an efficient, profitable operation at CN but from what I can see and hear has a much different view of labour relations. CN is a well run railway under his leadership with a less repressive work culture.
That said, Mr Harrison is who he is and as the saying goes about 'old dogs and new tricks'.... learning new ways is not likely in his playbook. He's very unlikely to change IMO. He's made a career out of turning difficult companies around and I guess 'b.. busting' is his preferred methodology as he does so. He's 'the brightest star in his universe' if I can put it that way.
It's a pity he has that kind of attitude. I'm sure CP will compete successfully but truth be told as long as he's in charge it will be a very difficult place to work. He'll keep the wheels turning but I think a lot of people at different levels in the organization are going to get ground up and spit out in the process as you have said. This is unfortunate.
He talked at one time at the beginning of his CP tenure about getting things turned around in about a four year time frame and then turning things over to someone else.
For your sake and that of your fellow employees, I hope he does....
He'll be turning the reins over to Keith Creel soon enough anyway. Apart from Harrison's idiosycracies, a big company is like a big family; there's alot of dysfunctional stuff going on. Things don't make sense sometimes, and to the casual observer or to someone who isn't privy to the "big picture" it can look as if the management isn't capable. CP is undergoing alot of change right now.. and most people generally don't like change even if the end result is a better company at some point down the road.
Harrison is a strong personality, and that's generally the type of person who gets ahead in big business. The shrinking violet, the people pleaser, and those who try to play by the rules don't get far up the ladder. Moreover, management is a very inexact science, and success is often subjective. Look at Harrison's numbers at CN and now at CP... looking at the numbers alone one would conclude that he's a genius. Yet he's reviled by some because in their estimation he's failed as a manager...i.e. the successes are built on a mortgaged future etc. Now look at a guy like Tiger Woods... nobody, even his most ardent critics, would suggest he's a lousy golfer, because Woods' professional results are black and white... there's no gray. Same can't be said for managers.
CP is a work in progress. Just because you see problems and there's some confusion and dysfunction doesn't mean that the Company isn't going in the right direction. Harrison and his predecessor Paul Tellier turned CN from a moribund government bureaucracy into the most efficient railroad in North America, if not the world. In time, I believe that he and his protege Keith Creel will do the same for CP. So hang in there, be positive, things could be alot worse.
I am not trying to be too critical of Canada here but it's NOT just CN and CP that faced serious financial trouble before Hunter Harrison stepped up to right the finances. Didn't Air Canada need to import an American CEO to fix things? Also, name me a Canadian University whose business school is on par with the many business schools South of the border. I had a Canadian Manager part of the time I worked at General Motors. He appeared to be hardworking but had the attitude in a manufacturing firm that nice guys finish first. Which was one of many misconceptions that eventually led to his replacement. Another was if he overloaded himself with tasks, some of which would never get done, nobody would raise questions about him leaving each night at 4:30 to 5:00 p.m. for home.
I have no experience with Canadians in the Western provinces only Ontario and points East. I have heard that there is a split between EAST and WEST in Canada in Culture, Political Beliefs, Personal Beliefs. So it could very well be the work ethic is different in the WEST of Canada vs Ontario. I am also, just going off personal experience here. I could not believe the VIA rail crew on the Jasper to Prince Rupert train spouting off all their conspiracy theories about Hunter Harrison to the Passengers (granted there were only 4 of us on the train car). It was pretty bizarre to listen to and I wondered more than once what rational person would believe such nonsense.
I understand that some business executives are not popular and in a union shop especially negative rumors grow like weeds. My Father was a VP at a $30 million a year firm in SE Wisconsin. Saw both the before and after picture in regards to unionization. Before picture, most were afraid to voice an opinion. After picture, my Father had a Rolls Royce hidden in his garage and we had solid gold fixtures at home and all 10 of our family members were luxuriating in the lap of luxury. Yeah try looking at the costs of raising a family of 8. Anyways, I understand it was union propoganda to get folks to join the union AND for those in the union to feel like someone was fast and loose with the steak knife. I also worked at the plant as a union member and saw the other side of the fence and how some employee actions were misrepresented as "screwing off" when in effect they were trying to make the workplace better. So I think I can see both sides of the fence as far as unions and management.
At any rate, if Hunter Harrison is a villian, I can tell you that Wall Street loves him just based on the performance of the stock. Before he took over CP stock was selling for $22-24 a share. Look at the price now. That is 80% because Hunter is at CP implementing his program and the change in operating ratio of CP. If it were true he was being reckless, the NYSE would quickly pick up on that too.
Western (in London) and University of Toronto are as good as any in the US. But formal schooling in business isn't all that its cracked up to be. Harrison never went beyond HS and I have an MBA who works for me driving truck.
One other comment on Executive life. My first job after college (and previous to that a 5 year stint in the Army Infantry as enlisted), was being introduced to one of the 12 Executive VP's of General Motors in Detroit. He was a former Economic Adviser to President Carter and I was going to support him and his staff technically. Guess what was in his office? A small bedroom with cot, washroom with shower, small mini-kitchen, etc. How often do you guys think he got to see his wife and kids? He was a resident of Washington, D.C. that worked in Detroit HQ in the New Center area. True GM paid for his commute each week via use of their private plane fleet and he was in the office M-F before anyone else usually and left after most people. Would any of you want to live that life? I know it changed my plans on becomming a business executive myself and it was a definite eye opener for me.
CMStPnP If it were true he was being reckless, the NYSE would quickly pick up on that too.
Please be careful about this kind of statement.
I read in the Vancouver Sun business pages today that the number/amount of US subprime loans are approaching their before '08 meltdown levels. Stock exchanges need regulators and overseers too, as do corporations. Recent history does have lessons to teach us IMO.
Something about the fox and the henhouse comes to mind here....
Ulrich Western (in London) and University of Toronto are as good as any in the US. But formal schooling in business isn't all that its cracked up to be. Harrison never went beyond HS and I have an MBA who works for me driving truck.
I agree. Sometimes life experience equates to schooling. I remember from my Army experience......7 years in the Infantry and your a Mid to Senior SSG, you already have most of RANGER school under your belt with pure experience. School is supposed to in most cases accelerate your life experience and bring that experience forwards to a younger age.....in my belief.
As for the MBA, yes some folks have self confidence issues, some cannot market themselves, some just do not want to pursue a related job field to their degree. Lots of explanations there.
lenzfamily CMStPnP If it were true he was being reckless, the NYSE would quickly pick up on that too. CM... Please be careful about this kind of statement. I read in the Vancouver Sun business pages today that the number/amount of US subprime loans are approaching their before '08 meltdown levels. Stock exchanges need regulators and overseers too, as do corporations. Recent history does have lessons to teach us IMO. Something about the fox and the henhouse comes to mind here.... Charlie Chilliwack, BC
No idea what is going on there and well there are exceptions to every rule but there are sector analysts on NYSE that participate on the investor calls that should understand this stuff and price risk into the market value.
I also remember the Milwaukee Road to CP transition. Interesting to hear about those changes as well. Milwaukee employees felt CP was pulling up too much rail or making other changes too hasty........then came the signaling and dispatching improvements and some of them started to piece things together.
Thanks to CMStPnP, Ulrich, and lenzfamily for their insights.
I agree with CMStPnP that the lifestyle of a manager is not for everybody. It’s not for me. Even junior management is not for me. I don’t think I would be able to sleep very well with the added pressure of being a manager. Also, I like to be home with my family.
I understand why some of the junior managers at CP are so rude and belittling. It comes from above them. They run around scared of the email from above and that pressure ends up being put on my shoulders. Fair enough. I have one story of a Supt. (who has since left the company), who was so stressed that he was unapproachable. One day I was inspecting my locomotives at the start of my shift. He pulled up in his pickup, rolled down the window and yelled, “What the F*** are you doing? Get back to work!” I looked up at him and noticed he did not have any PPE so he could not get out of his pickup. So I just ignored him and carried on with my duties.
In my eyes this man was an idiot. First, he gave me 0 respect as a member of the human race. Second, he had no idea what I was doing. I would never help a man like that.
He never wanted an answer to his question. He was just losing his mind because of his fear of the email from above.
I often thought about where this stress and pressure is coming from. Anything I have read from EHH is always so positive. One of his core values is “People” and his description of this core value would make you think that CN was the best place in the world to work. Even CPs employee magazine is always full of very positive statements from EHH. He appears to be a very positive person at the public level. Where is this poor management style coming from? Of course I don’t know, but I believe it is coming from the Senior VP Operations. Another one of CPs brass that I have met. This guy is a screamer even if he does not know what is going on. Of course he knows at the network level what is going on, but at the local level he does not. To come in screaming at me for no reason about things he has no idea about, come on. What kind of impression does that leave?
This is where it comes from I believe. This guy screams down the chain of command until it gets down to me. Some poor kid Trainmaster is so flustered by this that he losing his mind on me. Then you get the “What the F*** are you doing?” attitude.
lenzfamily, all this antagonizing of employees is part of the plan. CP is recreating its workforce. They are getting rid of the old school mentality and replacing it with fresh new kids. They are being taught in conductor school the “new way.” This is fine and dandy. Why don’t they teach me? Anyways the proof of this is the number of people that have been fired or bridged to pension. If you look at the employee roster today and compare it to a couple of years ago, it has been reinvented and retrained. Retrained except for the older people who still survive. We have not been retrained. We have been beaten down for trying our best during difficult times.
Another cost savings that will appear this year and next is there are quite a few people that are still on the payroll that are bridged to pension age. They will start coming off the payroll this year and next I think, creating more savings from payroll.
Ulrich, thanks for your positive comments. I know it could be much worse. I am hanging in there because I want to be part of the lean machine that CP is becoming. I hope to be part of what could become one of the best RRs is N.A. I want to print the t-shirt that reads, “I survived Hunter.”
Observation from playing the game for near 50 years.
From the Division level on up - the Division Manager is the diplomat, the Asst. Division Manager is the screaming idiot hatchet man. The pattern follows at each level up the chain of command.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Observation from playing the game for near 50 years. From the Division level on up - the Division Manager is the diplomat, the Asst. Division Manager is the screaming idiot hatchet man. The pattern follows at each level up the chain of command. Balt Do you mean something like 'good cop, bad cop' for railroads. What a way of doing things. You'd really have to know the workplace culture to figure out what was/is happening. Sure could mess with people that way. Charlie Chilliwack, BC
Balt
Do you mean something like 'good cop, bad cop' for railroads. What a way of doing things. You'd really have to know the workplace culture to figure out what was/is happening. Sure could mess with people that way.
The guy who asked you what the F you were doing is indeed an idiot. Shouldn't be a manager or in any other role that requires interaction with people. Hopefully Hunter's culling of the herd will include him and others of that ilk.
"They are getting rid of the old school mentality and replacing it with fresh new kids. They are being taught in conductor school the “new way.” This is fine and dandy. Why don’t they teach me? Anyways the proof of this is the number of people that have been fired or bridged to pension. If you look at the employee roster today and compare it to a couple of years ago, it has been reinvented and retrained. Retrained except for the older people who still survive. We have not been retrained. We have been beaten down for trying our best during difficult times. "
That right there is the pressure, if you ask me. Has anyone asked management why it seems the younger kids are being treated differently and slightly more favorably than the existing employees? What was the response?
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