Berkshire41You may be right, but according to the recent article on ACS64, there is consideration of electrification into the Carolinas as well into the great lakes, both NS routes. Why duplicate when electric is so easy.
Electric is anything but easy or cheap to install in railroad installations.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If I recall correctly, that was about the time of conversion from steam to diesel. We need to look at the economics of electric freight where there would be a dual usage for passenger/commuter operations. I know MofW is expensive for overhead electric, but the only way to make progress is to continually question the current paradigm. I recently did a souces & uses study to determin feasebility of waste-to-energy (not a good idea at this time).
The N&W and Virginian electrifications might possibly considered as special case--after the N&W bored another tunnel through Elkhorn Mountain, reducing the grade, the company felt that it no longer needed to use overhead electric power and could run the road engines through; after the N&W absorbed the Virginian, it became able to run trains one way over the former Virginian track and the opposite way on the original N&W track where the two are parallel, and it became uneconomical to use the electric locomotives.
Johnny
Conrail dropped freight electrifiction well past the end of the steam era.Assuming that electrification were installed to bring trains up and down the grade, you'd need terminals and facilities at the ends of the segment to at least add/remove, and at most change out, the power, then to service it. This would be something that had to be done no matter what, if the freight were going beyond the end points of your electrification. Lots of crews needed for this alone, not to mention shop facilities at at least one end. I suspect that, as NS has found out, it would still be easier and cheaper to route its freight around the grade.Now here's an idea for you (you may take it as seriously as you wish). Have a power company wire the grade--only the grade--for electrical operation. Buy a fleet of electric locomotives--one, a dozen, a hundred. And let the electric company operate them up and down the hill. It would, in an ideal world, take as much electricity to power them up the hill as would be generated by the locomotives rolling downhill (for mechanical reasons that's probably not true). But if you run the generators (I mean, the locomotives) downhill during times when electrical demand is high, they can provide power to a grid somewhere, then power can be used to run the locomotives back up the hill when the demand for grid power is at its lowest. No other trains to interfere with operation. Perhaps NS could add tonnage to the downhill slide to increase the power generated by braking them. The result should be power that could be sold to recoup some of the costs.(As a postscript, I should add that there are peaks and valleys in power use that make a plan like this plausible. Just south of Ludington, Michigan, a power company pumps water into a huge pond a few hundred feet above the level of Lake Michigan. During the day (peak demand) the water is drained, generating power as it falls back into Lake Michigan. This plant has been in operation for decades, so I assume it is a profitable thing.)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
That is correct. ONLY after the N&W purchased the Virginian di they eliminate the electric lines. According to a friend who grew up alongside the Virginian, the colst of the electric lines was very cheap. they used the coal from the mines that they serviced to produce power.
I like the way you think. Run the heavy coal trains down during the day, and return them at night. From my visit there are several marshalling tracks at the top and probably some kind of pull out at the bottom.
A Duke plant near Charlotte on Lake Norman does that same thing; pump water up at night and generate hydro-el during peak demand.
When you talk about electric freight, I can remember the GG's parked outside Harrisburg in the late 60's
Electric is good for passenger rail with quick stops & starts, and for top speed. Where there is dual usage (freight & passenger) electric could service both. There is talk of electrifying the Carolinian to Charlotte (from DC). If so, NS should consider electric freight.
Berkshire41[snipped - PDN] . . . I couldn't help pondering that NS should consider electric slave locomotives, using dynamic breaking to lower cars down the grade and put their electricity into catenaries for the return trip up the hill. I thought this was so novel I just had to share. What do you think?
- Paul North.
In "When the Steam Railroads Electrified", there is mention of a proposal for an electrified railroad that would haul coal from the Southwest (New Mexico, IIRC) to the Pacific. Electricity would be generated from locomotives re-using regenerative braking on downhill loaded runs. Uphill runs with empties would use this electricity for their runs. It sounds great in theory but the proposal was vetoed by the ICC based on unrealistic economic and engineering projections.
Quoting Berkshire 41 (I do not know why, but his post did not come to me on the thread, but by email, with the notation that it is on the Saluda Grade thread): "....There is talk of electrifying the Carolinian to Charlotte (from DC). If so, NS should consider electric freight." This is interesting, since the train travels over CSX to Selma (277 miles from Washington), then over the North Carolina Railroad to Charlotte (112 miles to Greensboro, and then only 92 miles on the main line to Charlotte).
caldreamerONLY after the N&W purchased the Virginian di they eliminate the electric lines.
I didn't realize that we switched from NS to CSX from my train rides from High Point (south of GreenSborO) to DC. I have been out of the area for over 8 years now, but read how ridership on the Carolinian has rise dramatically, from 1 train/day each way back in the 90's to like 6/day each way now. See page 31 of Jan 2015, last paragraph..."electrified expansion into N. Carolina or up to Springfield MA."
Saluda ain't reopening under NS. It cost too much to operate thirteen years ago, and they're definitely not going to make things even more complicated and expensive for two trains a day. Plus, NS sold the line from Flat Rock to Asheville.
Regarding "high speed" rail into NC...not happening for decades. The latest estimate is 2035, and that's only for diesels running up to 110mph.
There are currently two trains between Charlotte and D.C. (Crescent and Carolinian), three trains between Charlotte and Raleigh (Carolinian, Piedmont, Piedmont), and two trains between Raleigh and D.C. (Silver Star and Carolinian). Not sure where you're getting your numbers from.
Berkshire41 I didn't realize that we switched from NS to CSX from my train rides from High Point (south of GreenSborO) to DC. I have been out of the area for over 8 years now, but read how ridership on the Carolinian has rise dramatically, from 1 train/day each way back in the 90's to like 6/day each way now. See page 31 of Jan 2015, last paragraph..."electrified expansion into N. Carolina or up to Springfield MA."
Berkshire 41: This link from July of 2014 will explain what happened when WATCO moved into Western North Carolina. More searchs may help bring you up to speed.
See Linked story @ http://www.thesylvaherald.com/breaking_news/article_66d9e4a0-135a-11e4-adef-0017a43b2370.html
Deggesty Quoting Berkshire 41 (I do not know why, but his post did not come to me on the thread, but by email, with the notation that it is on the Saluda Grade thread): "....There is talk of electrifying the Carolinian to Charlotte (from DC). If so, NS should consider electric freight." This is interesting, since the train travels over CSX to Selma (277 miles from Washington), then over the North Carolina Railroad to Charlotte (112 miles to Greensboro, and then only 92 miles on the main line to Charlotte).
It's the North Carolina Railroad all the way from Selma to Charlotte.
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