Wizlish dakotafred If there were a 4-lane highway between Peking and Moscow, I'll bet there would be no talk of HSR. I'll presume this is seriously said. Have you looked at the topography between Peking and Moscow? At the likelihood of supplying support infrastructure for road vehicles traveling that route? At the time it would take to make the trip... and the condition of anyone driving it within a reasonable period of time?
dakotafred If there were a 4-lane highway between Peking and Moscow, I'll bet there would be no talk of HSR.
I'll presume this is seriously said. Have you looked at the topography between Peking and Moscow? At the likelihood of supplying support infrastructure for road vehicles traveling that route? At the time it would take to make the trip... and the condition of anyone driving it within a reasonable period of time?
You confuse my point, which was certainly NOT that Russia/China should build a 4-lane between Moscow and Peking; but, rather, that the long history of such roads in the U.S. goes a long way toward explaining the lack of enthusiasm and opportunity for HSR here today.
Phoebe Vet In 1965, while attending Yale University, Fred Smith wrote an economics paper exploring how goods were transported in the United States. At the time, shippers focused on transporting large packages across the United States by truck or inside passenger airplanes. Smith thought that a company carrying small, essential items by plane could be a more efficient transporter than existing companies. Smith wrote the paper at the last minute and did not go into details about how to actually run such a company. His professor gave him a "C" for the work. Ater all, how big could the market be that would pay that much for over night, when there were already much cheaper alternatives that only took a couple of days... “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.” ― George Bernard Shaw
In 1965, while attending Yale University, Fred Smith wrote an economics paper exploring how goods were transported in the United States. At the time, shippers focused on transporting large packages across the United States by truck or inside passenger airplanes. Smith thought that a company carrying small, essential items by plane could be a more efficient transporter than existing companies. Smith wrote the paper at the last minute and did not go into details about how to actually run such a company. His professor gave him a "C" for the work.
Ater all, how big could the market be that would pay that much for over night, when there were already much cheaper alternatives that only took a couple of days...
“People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.” ― George Bernard Shaw
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
OK, I understand now. You are allowed to discuss it but I am not. See the similarity?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet OK, I understand now. You are allowed to discuss it but I am not. See the similarity?
I was taking exception to schlimn telling us that if we were on a trains forum, we all should have the same opinion about HSR. I don't know what in the world that idea has to do with the founding of Federal Express.
dakotafredYou confuse my point, which was certainly NOT that Russia/China should build a 4-lane between Moscow and Peking; but, rather, that the long history of such roads in the U.S. goes a long way toward explaining the lack of enthusiasm and opportunity for HSR here today
Point now taken.
My point is that the people saying a large project is impractical or cannot be done are not always correct. The world has been built by people who didn't listen to the people who thought they were crazy dreamers.
Phoebe Vet My point is that the people saying a large project is impractical or cannot be done are not always correct. The world has been built by people who didn't listen to the people who thought they were crazy dreamers.
dakotafred Isn't it true that, here, the alternatives to rail -- passenger and freight -- have been better developed for 50 years, and the niche remaining for rail is correspondingly less? If there were a 4-lane highway between Peking and Moscow, I'll bet there would be no talk of HSR.
Isn't it true that, here, the alternatives to rail -- passenger and freight -- have been better developed for 50 years, and the niche remaining for rail is correspondingly less? If there were a 4-lane highway between Peking and Moscow, I'll bet there would be no talk of HSR.
our friends in Germany have had multi lane Autobahn highways since 1931, many miles with only "advisory " speed limits, and they have a say in how their money is spent, yet there is strong support for HSR there, the same is true of the UK with its "M" designated motorways, and the taxpayers have a strong voice yet plans for HS2 are progressing nicely.
A high speed train from China to Moscow? I didn't know there was such a demand for cheap dollar-store crap, junky power tools and thirty-dollar microwave ovens in Russia. But, what do the Russians make that people in other countries want? What would be in a frieght train from Russia to China? Anything at all? China sends so many containers to Canada that they don't even want them back, it's cheaper to make new containers because the landfills full of broken three year old junk from China must be kept full, right?
Buslist dakotafred Isn't it true that, here, the alternatives to rail -- passenger and freight -- have been better developed for 50 years, and the niche remaining for rail is correspondingly less? If there were a 4-lane highway between Peking and Moscow, I'll bet there would be no talk of HSR. our friends in Germany have had multi lane Autobahn highways since 1931, many miles with only "advisory " speed limits, and they have a say in how their money is spent, yet there is strong support for HSR there, the same is true of the UK with its "M" designated motorways, and the taxpayers have a strong voice yet plans for HS2 are progressing nicely.
and
Murphy Siding commented
"...Fair enough. Can we assume that it's ok to question things?"
The scope of the discussion starting with HSR (High Speed Rail) has been bounced all about this Forum for quite a while. HSR has definitely grown travel in the European countries. China has built (and is building their own network of HSR lines). Now Russia is wanting into the picture, seemingly an ideal way of moving people across its vast differences. I am sure the Russians will build the system they feel they need.
And in America: we have a limited exposure to what might be considered an 'entry level' HSR in the North East Corridor, maximum speeds limited to the current infrastructure, and its short-comings for speed, and suitable equipment for higher speeds.
From the very beginning, the invention and development of transportation has been accomplished by forward thinking individual who pushed their ideas forward mechanically, and financially.
The Operations of Federal Express are a continuation of that motion. In 1971 Fred Smith bought an acvviation Company in Little Rock, Ark. His thesis was that shippers would use an expedited air freight service to move time sensitive shipments. He started off with about 15 small jet aircraft (Fanjet Falcon types). The company struggled to make expenses and payrolls. The 'story' then, was that things were so tight, Fred Smith used a payroll to gamble and build his resources(?). His financial issues were so embroiled with Arkansas State Dept of revenue, Smith and his whole operation decamped to Memphis,Tn. and for a long time Smiths aircraft avoided Arkansas air-space. As everyone knows now FedEx has morphed and changed into the operation it is now. In the mid-1980's Fed Ex bought out 'Flying Tigers', a company that dated to post WWII and gained access to China. Along the way they have dought a lot of regularory and legislative battles[ in the late 1970's early 80's they needed larger aircraft, but were limited to the smaller Falcon-types] It took some lobbying and threats for flying formations of the Falcons to various destinations that finally moved them into the B-727s and DC-10's. Now Fed Ex rides the rails to and from destinations all over. Hubs in places like Ankorage, Subic Bay and Stuttgart speed packages along.
The problem in the United States is as I see it, one of an ability to purchase property for ROW's and Environmental Rules and Regulations that seem to change with the whims of the regulators. An in ability to anchor the funding for AMTRAK in any kind of a coheasive flow of funds. It being a political football, and a hostage of the Legislative process. Apparent hurdles that do not exist in Russia or China and to lesser degrees, elsewhare.
FedEx also expanded into ground services, buying truck lines that provided long distance and local delivery service; the last few years that I worked, I dealt with FedEx Freight, which, in the West, had been Viking.
And, there is FedEx Ground.
It is a quite a successful company.
Johnny
schlimm Yet the topic of HSR mostly meets wth naysaying and/or "yes, buts."
Politician: "We are going to build a high speed rail corridor through this state"
Taxpayer: "Great idea, how soon will it be complete?"
Politician: "This is going to be expensive, every taxpayer in the state will have to share some of the cost"
Taxpayer: " I can hardly wait!"
Politician: "The nearest service point to you will be a 35 mile drive"
Taxpayer: " Yes, but..."
Murphy Siding I was taking exception to schlimn telling us that if we were on a trains forum, we all should have the same opinion about HSR.
Perhaps if you would read more carefully you wouldn't need to get all snitty and make ridiculous comments. I NEVER said everyone on a Trains forum should have the same (pro) opinion about HSR. I only said it was disappointing to me that so few do. That's all. Are you so anti-HSR that you have to resort to distorting others' comments?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
54light15 A high speed train from China to Moscow? I didn't know there was such a demand for cheap dollar-store crap, junky power tools and thirty-dollar microwave ovens in Russia. But, what do the Russians make that people in other countries want? What would be in a frieght train from Russia to China? Anything at all?
A high speed train from China to Moscow? I didn't know there was such a demand for cheap dollar-store crap, junky power tools and thirty-dollar microwave ovens in Russia. But, what do the Russians make that people in other countries want? What would be in a frieght train from Russia to China? Anything at all?
I really like this post, which reminds us to take a step back, take a deep breath and remember that these are two Third World dictatorships that sit atop their populations and, sooner or later, are destined for the ash heap of history, HSR (if any) and all.
dakotafred I really like this post, which reminds us to take a step back, take a deep breath and remember that these are two Third World dictatorships that sit atop their populations and, sooner or later, are destined for the ash heap of history, HSR (if any) and all.
at what point do we cease calling the world's largest economy (China) third world?
I had hoped we could keep geopolitics and ideologies out of this, but it seems some folks look for opportunities to do so whenever they can.
However, this was supposed to be about HSR, so about celebrating on Tuesday the groundbreaking ceremony for the CA HSR in Fresno? Or will the wetblanket brigade rainon the parade? [sorry for the terribly mixed and hackneyed metaphors!!]
schlimm Murphy Siding I was taking exception to schlimn telling us that if we were on a trains forum, we all should have the same opinion about HSR. Perhaps if you would read more carefully you wouldn't need to get all snitty and make ridiculous comments. I NEVER said everyone on a Trains forum should have the same (pro) opinion about HSR. I only said it was disappointing to me that so few do. That's all. Are you so anti-HSR that you have to resort to distorting others' comments?
schlimm Look to the tone of the responses here if you want to see the difference in attitude between HSR elsewhere in the world and a lack of it here.
schlimm Yes, that is true of us. It is also true that the people of many/most nations who have or are building/expanding HSR also have free choices. The problem I have with this is this. Trains forum is supposed to be a site about trains, for people who are interested in trains. Yet the topic of HSR mostly meets wth naysaying and/or "yes, buts." Somehow, many folks here like freight trains and the history railroading, as do I, but seem less than enthusiastic about the future, which clearly should include HSR.
Yes, that is true of us. It is also true that the people of many/most nations who have or are building/expanding HSR also have free choices. The problem I have with this is this. Trains forum is supposed to be a site about trains, for people who are interested in trains. Yet the topic of HSR mostly meets wth naysaying and/or "yes, buts." Somehow, many folks here like freight trains and the history railroading, as do I, but seem less than enthusiastic about the future, which clearly should include HSR.
schlimm No. Of coure not. Don't try putting words in other's mouths as your way of making some point. It is simply disappointing that so few here support HSR, much less have any enthusiasm for it.
No. Of coure not. Don't try putting words in other's mouths as your way of making some point. It is simply disappointing that so few here support HSR, much less have any enthusiasm for it.
All I can say is I hope you are more careful with reading other's comments on here. Even in your last comment, you miss/distort the meaning.
schlimm All I can say is I hope you are more careful with understanding your customer's lumber orders than you are in reading other's comments on here. Even in your last, wordy comment of cut and pastes, you miss the point.
All I can say is I hope you are more careful with understanding your customer's lumber orders than you are in reading other's comments on here. Even in your last, wordy comment of cut and pastes, you miss the point.
Yes, but.............
Norm
And the naysayers' chorus continues on and on........................
CNN)London to New York City by car?
It could happen if the head of Russian Railways has his way.
According to a March 23 report in The Siberian Times, Russian Railways president Vladimir Yakunin has proposed a plan for a massive trans-Siberian highway that would link his country's eastern border with the U.S. state of Alaska, crossing a narrow stretch of the Bering Sea that separates Asia and North America.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/24/travel/trans-siberian-road/index.html
Drive your Buick to Beijing, Berling, or London for that matter. Ride the high speed train if you have no desire to drive that far.
If at first people consider your plan impractical, make it more so.
Show me the money!
Virtually anything can be accomplished for a price.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
There's one other thing to consider here, even if Russia is behind this(with the Chinese financing and building it): look at it from a military standpoint, just how much faster could China invade and take over Russia, should they desire to do so,, with a HSR route between Beijing and Moscow? Just imagine it, a dozen trains filled with Chinese "tourists" sent to Moscow all at the same time...it has possibilities.
I'd like to have a high speed Lionel train to my mailbox and back so I don't have to get out of my truck. But there is an incline, my crabby landlord and, oh the mailbox is on the opposite side of the street.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
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