BNSF of UP Track

[Jack Sprat]

Just a note: I know next to nothing about trains, so if this is a stupid question, I apologize.

For 18 years, I've lived in a town with a Union Pacific track, but in the past year, I've seen several BNSF trains on it. I thought only Union Pacific trains could use those tracks, so I was wondering if there was an explanation for this.

[cacole]

It's called "Trackage Rights."  In some cases, the government requires railroads to share their trackage with other roads when those other roads have customers that need to be served, or need to use the other road's trackage to reach a certain destination.  

Also, it could be a case of the BNSF having a recent derailment somewhere in your area that requires them to detour over the UP's tracks.  Railroads are competitors but cooperate with each other.

 

[dehusman]

They could be trackage rights as previously mentioned.  Some trackage rights are conditins imposed on railroads by the government to preserve competition as a result of mergers, some trackage rights are agreements between railroads to permit useage for business reasons.  Some trains may have power from another railroad (BNSF engines), but may actually be UP trains.

[samfp1943]

dehusman

They could be trackage rights as previously mentioned.  Some trackage rights are conditins imposed on railroads by the government to preserve competition as a result of mergers, some trackage rights are agreements between railroads to permit useage for business reasons.     Some trains may have power from another railroad (BNSF engines), but may actually be UP trains.

 

 

Out here in South Central Kansas, we have regular trackage rights trains on BNSF lnes. SK&O RR ( a Watco Line) runs regular traffic from Winfield area, to Wichita ( Rock Trains). UPRR runs the Ark City sub with Coal Trains.  I have a friend who was engineer on a regular BNSF run between Little Rock and Memphis (nee:-part of- Rock Island). He's now running AMTRAK south out of Memphis, (on ICRR/CNR).

[CShaveRR]

Perhaps you should tell us what town this is, and someone might be able to tell you exactly what's going on.  Trackage rights is the most likely reason, but it's interesting that you've noticed this only in the past year.

It's important to understand that the paint scheme on the locomotive doesn't determine the owner of the train.  Having said that, I have no knowledge of UP leasing, borrowing, or appropriating any BNSF power.

Finally, there are no stupid questions here.  Answers, perhaps...

[BaltACD]

With the power short nature of the industry at the present time - if it gets on your property and runs - it gets used for that terminals needs.  It is not unusual for power from any company to end up on any other company and get used by that company.  Even 'direct competitors' use the power of their competition for their own needs.  All power gets accounted for under 'horsepower hours' agreements between the carriers - at the end of the accounting period the hours get settled on a net basis with monetary compensation.

Accounting for the hours can get involved, as NS power coming onto CSX on a train from the BNSF would be accounted for as BNSF power and this power could then be sent off CSX to the UP.  Glad I am not tasked with settling the accounts.

[MP173]

Balt:

I have always been curious as to how that is accounted for (use of power).  Are there readings taken when the train is transferred from one carrier to the other, or is that all digitally transferred?  

These days there are some really interesting consists.  I am regularly seeing CSX power on the NS mainline either on trains off of the CN or the BNSF (oil trains in particular for BNSF).

Ed

[BaltACD]

MP173

Balt:

I have always been curious as to how that is accounted for (use of power).  Are there readings taken when the train is transferred from one carrier to the other, or is that all digitally transferred?  

These days there are some really interesting consists.  I am regularly seeing CSX power on the NS mainline either on trains off of the CN or the BNSF (oil trains in particular for BNSF).
Ed

Whenever cars and/or engines are interchanged between carriers a record of the date and time of the interchange is created in the computer systems of both the delivering and receiving carriers, a copy of this record is also shipped off to the AAR for use by their systems (they sell data to shippers/consignees that don't want to invest heavily in their transportation data systems).  Just start counting the hours a engine is on a particular carrier and multiply it by it's UMLER (Universal Machine Language Equipment Register) stated HP and you have how Horsepower Hours are calculated - simple for computers, harder for bipeds.

[dehusman]

The railroads measure the time between when the train or engine is interchanged to the other railroad and when it is interchanged back and multiply that number of hours by the horsepower of the locomotive.  On a monthly basis, the railroads compare how many hours they have accrued or owe and make plans to repay or balance those accounts.  The balances typically run in the millions of horepower hours.

The interchanges are reported by pretty old school means.  Railroads don't use GPS as much as people think because railroads can't read each other's GPS signals, plus not all engines have GPS transponders and not all GPS transponders work.  If a BNSF engine goes on the UP, the BNSF can read the GPS readings but the UP can't, so the UP has to measure it using the old school interchange reportings (understanding that "old school" may be AEI or CTC OS movement reportings).

[PNWRMNM]

Interchange reports have been used since the first two railroads began interchanging cars, long before the Civil War, and has been done by computers for decades. It is the industry standard for keeping track of equipment.

GPS is irrelevant to interchange reporting.

Mac McCulloch

[Firelock76]

Welcome aboard Jack!  and remember, the only stupid question is the one you're afraid to ask, so ask away.  There's a LOT of knowledge available here.

[Paul of Covington]

  I had the idea that horsepower hours referred to the power used, and I wondered how it was figured, but if I understand the last posts by BaltACD & dehusman, it's the power the locomotive is rated at.  If a 4000 HP locomotive sits idle for 12 hours, the borrowing road pays for 48,000 HP hours.

   If a foreign locomotive breaks down, I would think that the clock stops, but who is responsible for its repair?

[BaltACD]

Paul of Covington

  I had the idea that horsepower hours referred to the power used, and I wondered how it was figured, but if I understand the last posts by BaltACD & dehusman, it's the power the locomotive is rated at.  If a 4000 HP locomotive sits idle for 12 hours, the borrowing road pays for 48,000 HP hours.

   If a foreign locomotive breaks down, I would think that the clock stops, but who is responsible for its repair?

 

The clock doesn't stop until the holding road makes a formal request to stop it - this is normally done for major collision damage and other very serious mechanical issues.  There is a AAR code about what repairs the holding road is responsible for and the AAR standard charge for making the repair; very similar to the procedures that are used for repairing 'foreign' cars that become bad ordered.

[dakotafred]

CShaveRR

Perhaps you should tell us what town this is, and someone might be able to tell you exactly what's going on.

Good advice by Shave -- why hide? For instance: If your town is on the Moffit Tunnel route of the old D&RGW or on the former Western Pacific, we could tell you in a heartbeat that BNSF has government-dictated trackage rights on this modern-day Union Pacific line.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

See also the following articles from the "ABC's of Railroading" page here:

http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading 

"Trackage and Haulage Rights":

 http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/trackage-and-haulage-rights 

"When Trains Detour": 

http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/when-trains-detour 

Other posts have done quite well with the locomotive-sharing aspects.  See also the brief answer from "Ask Trains from December 2007":

http://trn.trains.com/railroads/ask-trains/2008/10/ask-trains-from-december-2007 

- Paul North. 

 

[dakotafred]

A good rule proposed on the forum some time ago -- by BALT, I believe -- goes something like, "A locomotive of any railroad can show up on any other railroad at any time."

[dehusman]

Paul of Covington

  I had the idea that horsepower hours referred to the power used, and I wondered how it was figured, but if I understand the last posts by BaltACD & dehusman, it's the power the locomotive is rated at.  If a 4000 HP locomotive sits idle for 12 hours, the borrowing road pays for 48,000 HP hours.

   If a foreign locomotive breaks down, I would think that the clock stops, but who is responsible for its repair?

 

Horsepower hours accrue the entire time the engie is on the other road, whether its used or not, whether its running or shut down, unless there is some offset or limit in the agreement between the two roads.  For example a shortline or terminal road might get 12 or 24 hours "free" time.  The only time the clock stops is when the road paying the hphrs notifies the delivering road that the engine is inoperable.  That could be an engine failure, past due Federal inspection or some non-conforming defect.

 

Much like railcars, minor repairs (brake shoes, air hoses, light bulbs) might be made by the railroad using the units, but for any inspections or major repairs the engine will be returned or the owning road contacted for disposition.  Normally the owning road does all major repairs and inspections.

 

In addition to hphrs there is also an accounting for fuel usage.  If the UP givethe NS an engine with 3500 gal in it and the NS gives it back with 2000 gal then the NS owes the UP for 1500 gal of fuel.  If the UP give the NS an engine with 2500 ga; and the NS gives it back with 3500 gal, the UP owes the NS for 1000 gal.  In most cases there are average burn rates or average delivery agreements that substitute for actual fuel readings.

[BaltACD]

dakotafred

A good rule proposed on the forum some time ago -- by BALT, I believe -- goes something like, "A locomotive of any railroad can show up on any other railroad at any time."

 

Not a rule - just a reality!