Railroad customers concern themselves with the condition inside railcars - not the exterior cosmetics. The customers loads ride inside the cars, not outside.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Murray: I take great pride in our railroads as an ethusist, historian, supporter, stockholder and grandson of a career railroader. I am shocked that we have a few here who could care less. But thats the society we have become.
Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL
DKNelson makes a great point lost on a few of graffiti supporters. Well said Mr. Nelson.
dknelson My issue with "graffiti" is to wonder why it is that the railroads seem so concerned about someone reasonably nicely dressed, with a reasonably nice car parked nearby, holding an expensive camera and perhaps also with a costly radio scanner standing on public property but admittedly near railroad property lines -- while young urban vandals holding multiple cans of spray paint apparently have all the illegal rail property access they need to create their "masterpieces" (some of which clearly take hours of work).
My issue with "graffiti" is to wonder why it is that the railroads seem so concerned about someone reasonably nicely dressed, with a reasonably nice car parked nearby, holding an expensive camera and perhaps also with a costly radio scanner standing on public property but admittedly near railroad property lines -- while young urban vandals holding multiple cans of spray paint apparently have all the illegal rail property access they need to create their "masterpieces" (some of which clearly take hours of work).
Because information or data is more valuable than a coat of paint.
Because surviellance is treated with more suspicion than vandalism.
Because a guy with a camera presents more risk to a company than a guy with a spray can.
Graffiti is proof that the nation's rail yards are not secure whatever. That should give us all pause.
You are assuming that most graffiti is applied in rail yards, on railroad property and you are assuming that rail yards are intended to have iron clad, impenetrable security. I would say that both of those assumptions are highly suspect.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Trackside survellance is little threat when you consider satellite maps as a source of information. Yet, seasoned railroaders still confuse the photographer with the terrorist. The danger of the guy with the spray paint is that he isn't noticed and has hands on access to equipment. The photographer typically does not. If the terrorist follows the lead of the photographer he will likely be only noticed. If he follows the lead of the vandal he has wide open and unchallenged access to the nation's rails. Thats a message a graffiti covered industry conveys and thats dangerous if its ever realized. Thats another reason to eradicate this plentyiful vandalism.
It's not that we're pro - graffiti, it is that we are waiting for a practical and feasible solution to be proposed.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I'd be interested in knowing what you think would curtail it?
I have no clue.
jimnorton DKNelson makes a great point lost on a few of graffiti supporters. Well said Mr. Nelson.
I hope you're not assuming that because people aren't taking the same stand against graffiti that you are that they support graffiti. That would not be the case. I believe you'll find that virtually everyone here finds graffiti offensive, and probably agrees that it could indicate a security problem. But it's not really an issue operationally. As long as a car can haul the intended load, it's perfectly servicable.
As far as the "danger" of railfans and cameras in concerned, and at risk of sounding like I'm supporting graffiti, the tagger is simply there to leave his mark with a paint can. A guy with a camera might be there to document some wrongdoing (real or perceived), or to document a weakness for later exploitation. We've had railroaders here in the past who simply can't understand why anyone would be interested in watching them work. I'd have been a little suspicious if someone was taking pictures of me working when I was a network technician...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
jimnorton I really don't understand the statement "hung up on graffiti" within a community of what should be rail supporters. You must not aspire to much if you find the wholesale destructiof the nation's railroads trivial. Yet, coming from a nation of slobs (look around) its not surprising!
I really don't understand the statement "hung up on graffiti" within a community of what should be rail supporters. You must not aspire to much if you find the wholesale destructiof the nation's railroads trivial. Yet, coming from a nation of slobs (look around) its not surprising!
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
As I see it, the basic problem is that the paint sprayers have no sense of responsibility towards the property of other people; they feel that they may do anything they want to do, no matter how much their actions deface that which does not belong to them. I have the impression that this feeling is far more widespread than it was, say, forty years ago.
I leave it to the rest of you to decide why this is, and what can be done about it.
Johnny
If grafitti was a railroad only problem EdNorton would have a soapbox. Grafitti is a worldwide issue and afflicts all echelons of societies, from trainsportation to structures and everything in between. From that viewpoint there is no soapbox - only a grain of sand among the 7+ Billion inhabitents of the world.
BaltACD Railroad customers concern themselves with the condition inside railcars - not the exterior cosmetics. The customers loads ride inside the cars, not outside.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
1) The industry does not have the resources to fight it.
2) The industry believes that graffiti does not pose any problem.
jimnorton Trackside survellance is little threat when you consider satellite maps as a source of information. Yet, seasoned railroaders still confuse the photographer with the terrorist.
Trackside survellance is little threat when you consider satellite maps as a source of information. Yet, seasoned railroaders still confuse the photographer with the terrorist.
Not necessarily. You are focused on "terrorists" when they are not necessarily the biggest risk to a company. There are all sorts of lawyers, focus group activists, advocates, litigants, thieves, con artists, muck rakers, etc. who may be doing surveilence of a railroad and mean a railroad economic harm. Not a terrorist among them, but all do potentially pose a risk to a railroad, for that matter any company. Hang around a major industrial facility with a camera for several hours taking pictures of the vechicles driving around, all the buildings, make sure you have a nice telephoto, and see if it doesn't attract the attention of somebody at the industry.
Euclid I would surmise that according to this forum consensus (in general), there are two different reasons why graffiti is so rampant: 1) The industry does not have the resources to fight it. 2) The industry believes that graffiti does not pose any problem. But of course it poses a problem. Marketing is a complex business, and it requires a lot more consideration than whether the railcar delivered the load as intended. Not only does graffiti on equipment send a message, but the refusal of a prosperous industry to remove graffiti also sends a message.
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Deggesty Euclid I would surmise that according to this forum consensus (in general), there are two different reasons why graffiti is so rampant: 1) The industry does not have the resources to fight it. 2) The industry believes that graffiti does not pose any problem. But of course it poses a problem. Marketing is a complex business, and it requires a lot more consideration than whether the railcar delivered the load as intended. Not only does graffiti on equipment send a message, but the refusal of a prosperous industry to remove graffiti also sends a message. As I see it, the basic reason that graffiti is rampant is that the "artists" have no respect for the property of other people. Now, the basic reasons that it is not removed are as you state them.
As I see it, the basic reason that graffiti is rampant is that the "artists" have no respect for the property of other people. Now, the basic reasons that it is not removed are as you state them.
You both sum that up very well.
16-567D3Amaybe the Rail Roads could offer a incentive to the taggers by havlng a place for them to go and have them practice their Art, or maybe offer to let them decorate some containers,trailers and rolling stock incorporating the Artists interpretation of the roads colors and logos.
Engaging an audience generally helps deal with issues such as this, but giving the taggers a fixed place to tag fails to recognize one primary purpose of their renderings - to be seen far and wide. There are plenty of stationary places to tag, and most have been tagged ad nauseum. Watch the movie "Now You See Me." At the end they are at "5 Pointz" in Queens, NYC. the place is basically all graffiti, but except for being in the movie, the tags there are only seen by those in the vicinity of 5 Pointz.
One must also consider the "thrill factor" of tagging forbidden objects (such as railroad cars). I suspect the taggers get a thrill out of their activity that would be lacking if they were given a canvas on an easel in the middle of the town square.
As has been mentioned dozens of times in the various threads, the railroads do see graffiti as a problem. Just not the level of problem some would like it to be.
We (railroaders) do take pride in the equipment we provide to our customers. We see graffiti as unfortunate but it does not compromise the integrity of the car. There are no AAR or FRA regulations concerning graffiti. We are kept quite busy keeping the cars watertight (in the case of plug door boxcars) and in safe and serviceable condition. Painting a car or locomotive is not cheap, we can't do it everytime someone tags.
We have on occasion painted out particularly offensive or obsene graffiti but that takes a carman away from more imprtant jobs like keeping he cars safe.
The graffiti problem isn't a railroad problem, it's a social problem that erupted with the introduction in the 70s of spray bombs, stop making spray bombs graffiti goes away. I don't think I've ever seen brush painted graffiti !
Rail cars are not the only place that grafitti "artists" strike. Look at retaining walls, bridge abutments, etc which are covered with "art". While on the board of our transit agency we went out of our way to prevent grafitti. (and still do) The first bus driver or train engineer in the morning upon seeing grafitti would radio in the location and it would be removed by noon. By denying the "artists" their canvas grafitti attacks went down. It would almost impossible for a railroad to do the same.
We had a place by a high school where the students painted the bridge piers. Fencing did not work. I, in jest, suggested connecting the 700 volt catenary to the fence. They liked the idea but nixed it due to liability. I had a transit officer hide near the bridge one evening. It only took one hour to apprehend the "artists". With the cleanup bill their parents had to pay plus the school publicity the problem went away. One interesting thing was that one of the "criminals" was the daughter of a city commissioner. Talk about egg on his face.
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