ALL:
I saw a report of a UP collision of two trains in Hoxie, Arkansas. In checking with an old OG, I found this is former Missouri Pacific trackage. Two Little Rock TV stations had aerial pictures of the wreck. It looks like one CSX and at least one UP locomotive were destroyed.
Can anyone shed more light on this wreck? How near to the former SLSF diamond was this? Was this CTC or single track ABC/TWC?
I will check Monday if the NTSB will investigate the wreck.
Ed Burns
Retired NP-BN-BNSF from Minneapolis, MN
UP's line through here is CTC.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
It was somewhat south of town and the the BNSF diamond. This is also on the Texas Eagle Amtrak route.
http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2014/08/17/train-derailment-in-hoxie-kills-2-homes-evacuated
It is hard to tell from aerial photos -- cars flopped all around and tracks misaligned -- so, I wonder if this section was double or single track? It appears that two parallel tracks leading to a switch were damaged, but I cannot tell if the switch was for a passing siding or if it is part of a crossover, which would make a big difference. And, I am not sure there was a switch at all as I could not see a frog or points ... just two tracks merged together, perhaps from the impact.
Also, I could make out only two locos in the aerial pix -- one, a UP on its side with nasty cab damage, and another that appears vertical, probably on rails and burned gray (perhaps that is the CSX motor mentioned, but I could not see that ID). No other locos are in sight on those 5 pix, but I am sure they are there somewhere. Perhaps they caromed onward out of view.
Bad news! ... Bob
MidlandMike It was somewhat south of town and the the BNSF diamond. This is also on the Texas Eagle Amtrak route. http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2014/08/17/train-derailment-in-hoxie-kills-2-homes-evacuated
The current BNSF ( Thayer Sub) is on a sort of North-North Westerly line and goes in a southeastery line towards Jonesboro,Ark and Memphis) The BNSF is a single tracked line with some passing sidings scattered along its route.
I believe both lines are CTC controlled. The UPR line is virtually table-top flat through Hoxie. The BNSF might have some line of site issues as it runs through the small community and an area of houses and buildings. BOth lines have much activity. It used to be hard to travel through that area in an automobile. USHwy 63 is a major route from the Memphis area into the Ozarks and on to Springfield,Mo. and US 67 was a major route from the St Louis area and on towards Little Rock. Many of those problems were aleviated in the erly part of 2000 by building an 'Interstate quality' by-pass for US Hwy 63 and removing the T- Junction at Hwy 67, and construction of Ark Hwy 290 towards Walnut Ridge,Ar.
The accident took place within the City limits of Hoxie according to the linked article which probably put it sout of the By-pass bridge on the South edge of town. That is the bridge that would carry USHwy 63 over Business 67 and the UPRR. An area of fairly straight tacks(?).
I'd leave cause as to the experts to decide.
Area of HOxie Ark from Google Map: @ https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0521076,-90.9744953,1661m/data=!3m1!1e3
The collision took place at or near a spot where two CTC main tracks converged (becoming a single track to the southwest). That, right there, gives you an important truth about the wreck: it was caused by the southwest-bound train exceeding the limits of its authority, for whatever reason (I have ideas about that, but those would be speculation). Sam, do you know where the crew-change point for UP north (northeast) of Hoxie would be? I'm assuming that (North) Little Rock is the southern end of the trip. As for the Eagle, reports I've seen suggest that it was behind the southwest-bound train, and had to be brought back to Poplar Bluff to detour around the wreck.
The crew district is Dexter/Poplar Bluff to N Little Rock. There is no regular intermediate crew change.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
No intermediate crew changes, but it now appears that the southbound crew boarded the train at East St. Louis. That's quite a long, and I daresay tiring, trip.
CShaveRR No intermediate crew changes, but it now appears that the southbound crew boarded the train at East St. Louis. That's quite a long, and I daresay tiring, trip.
Okay, thanks. Both trains were still well into their trips by then.
narig01To view the location on Google maps type in the following location.: SE Front St & SW Texas St, Hoxie, Ar The wreck is at the south end if the siding. About a mile south of the US-63 overpass. It looks like the northbound Texas Eagle went thru this morning. The southbound went down the other way. Rgds IGN
Seems that TRAINSNewswire of this date August 20,2014 is carying the following headline: FTA:
JONESBORO, Ark. – In their continuing investigation into a Sunday collision and derailment in northern Arkansas that killed two crewmembers, federal investigators now say the southbound train involved missed multiple signals, including a final stop signal, WMC-TV reports. Investigators are now collecting documentation and taking measurements at the scene...."
(WMCTV is a Memphis Television Station)
Looks like the NTSB is about to release a report on this collision:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/automatic-horn-may-be-behind-fatal-arkansas-train-crash/ar-AAlbKXM?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=UE13DHP
I can't even wrap my head around what this article is trying to say. What is an 'automatic horn'? Another PTC ad?
NorthWestI can't even wrap my head around what this article is trying to say. What is an 'automatic horn'? Another PTC ad?
Sounds like they are very confused on the function of an alerter.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann NorthWest I can't even wrap my head around what this article is trying to say. What is an 'automatic horn'? Another PTC ad? Sounds like they are very confused on the function of an alerter.
NorthWest I can't even wrap my head around what this article is trying to say. What is an 'automatic horn'? Another PTC ad?
Kelly P. Kissel has absolutely no knowledge about what he is trying to write about. He is trying to write about the operation of an Alerter, but knows nothing about it's operation in the real world.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The "automatic horn" is the automatic horn sequencer that blows grade crossing horn signals. Apparently it has been miswired in conjuctiontion with the alerter whereby the grade crossing horn signal is taken as a human input that satisfies tdhe alerter to not sound for that one time. That is only my approximate understdanding. More information may be linked to the following which is the explanation given by the NTSB:
NTSB Urgent Rail Recommendations: 'Alerters' Watching for Human Engagement Should Not Be Misled by Automated Functions
Here is the detailed explanation:
http://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-recs/recletters/R-15-006.pdf
Oh. My. God.
The law of unintended consequences combines with the "automotive engineer's" love of cheap "equivalent" functionality.
What's the right way for an alerter's processor to accept an "input" that the crew is moving locomotive controls -- here, specifically, the locomotive horn? That's pretty obvious: put a switch of some kind on the horn valve, or tap into the input from the physical button or cord in the cab, that registers that someone has actually done something in the cab - a human moving an actual control.
Automotive engineer: Let's make it wireless! We'll just listen for the horn and let the system understand the crew has to be blowing it. Why else would you be hearing a locomotive horn in the cab?
Government: We want quiet zones, but they don't seem to work at reducing accidents as much as we hoped, so we'll install directional horns that are only loud for people approaching the crossings. (A good idea.) Problem: they are also loud for vehicles approaching the crossings at right angles to the traffic lanes...
Now, remember the point Randy Stahl just made about alerters at Megantic: they are NOT meant to be depended on as safety devices -- they are backstopping crew alertness in specific respects. And are annoying in some of the ways they do so. Here, in an effort to make them less annoying, poor engineering choices and poor operating choices appear to have combined to open the door to disaster.
Next, I suspect, we will find out that microphone-based alerter systems aren't designed to allow hardwiring of additional switches for the "microphone" functions without a lot of expensive modifications on a unit-by-unit basis. Plus a bunch of programming that has to overwrite object code in PLCs, probably in some subset of an arcane language or toolkit. Next we'll learn that the alerters don't have flashable nonvolatile ROM.
The take-home message, though, is exactly as Hart said. I'm hoping that as part of the 'understanding' the railroads look at any other assumptions that have been coded into the alerter programming, and perhaps proactively 'fix' them too.
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