I remember hearing a while back the CN had dragged a loccomotive off the tracks and hooked up to a local power grid to provide a town electricity after a snowstorm. I just had the idea for an organization like the red cross to attach old prime movers to the back of trucks (like old dump trucks or moving trucks) or a flat bed. The railroads could donate old prime movers that still run well but something happened to the locomotive (like a bent frame resoluting from a derailment. In exchange on the side of the truck it would say "donated by __insert RR name___". It would be great positive publicity for the RR, and it would help people. The railroads could also provide locomotives that are sitting idle as well, and just have the electric company pay the fuel.
I am not sure if anything like this has been done before. What are your thoughts.
Edited to add: When I posted this I didn't realize there was another thread containing much more detail on the same incident.
I recall that incident; I believe the area had suffered a major ice storm. At the time, I didn't understand why it was necessary to move the locomotive off the railroad; I would have thought it easier just to run temporary electric lines from the track to an appropriate distribution point.
Out here on the plains, we are susceptible to power interruptions caused by Mother Nature. Our public facilities, such as hospitals, have enough standby power to maintain their critical functions. In addition the power companies have semitrailer mounted generators that are utilized in an emergency.
I'm under the impression that the major engine repair facilities -- for example North Platte on the UP -- maintain a stock of spare engines and generators that can be swapped into locomotives to return a unit to service quickly. If that is the case, I assume the engine from a destroyed locomotive would be put in the spares pool.
It isn't a bad idea, but if I were the railroad considering it, I'd go all in on the concept, retain ownership of the generator truck, and paint it Armour yellow and harbormist grey or whatever my colors were.
As long as the prime mover has a generator, controls to regulate the motor and generator, a fuel tank, and cooling system attached to it it will work.
By the time you get all the stuff you need in addition to the prime mover you have something way heavier than a truck can handle.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Slightly related, and getting a plug in for my sailboat, one of my passengers pointed out to me a cluster of electrical looking structures in Bristol Township, PA, on the Delaware River. He's a former airforce and Panam airline, not the railroad, pilot. He said that facility housed obsolete jet engines that the power company uses for peak demand electric generation.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
gardendance Slightly related, and getting a plug in for my sailboat, one of my passengers pointed out to me a cluster of electrical looking structures in Bristol Township, PA, on the Delaware River. He's a former airforce and Panam airline, not the railroad, pilot. He said that facility housed obsolete jet engines that the power company uses for peak demand electric generation.
Interesting, thanks for the information. I wonder if any power plants use old prime movers for that same reason?
dehusman As long as the prime mover has a generator, controls to regulate the motor and generator, a fuel tank, and cooling system attached to it it will work. By the time you get all the stuff you need in addition to the prime mover you have something way heavier than a truck can handle.
You could always have a tanker that carries the fuel, and just hook the two truck together when you reach the site. That would make the truck with te prime mover and generate lighter. I think it might be cheaper than new generators.
Kyle I wonder if any power plants use old prime movers for that same reason?
There are similar "peaker" plants that use engines identical to prime movers for peak demand service, IIRC 20-645s used to be common. Since railroads don't scrap an engine unless worn out or damaged, those engines are all purchased new. They operate at a fixed speed for max electrical generation.
Ten or so years ago the State of California was building the California Science center in Los Angeles and needed a emergency generator. Being the train guy a suggestion was made to use a cast off GE locomotive as the generator. The museum liked the idea and would have gone a head with the GE. There is always a but. Either the South Coast Air quality Management District or California Air Resources Board killed the project. an old GE locomotive pollutes the air too much. Even though it would only run a few hours a year.
usmc1401 Ten or so years ago the State of California was building the California Science center in Los Angeles and needed a emergency generator. Being the train guy a suggestion was made to use a cast off GE locomotive as the generator. The museum liked the idea and would have gone a head with the GE. There is always a but. Either the South Coast Air quality Management District or California Air Resources Board killed the project. an old GE locomotive pollutes the air too much. Even though it would only run a few hours a year.
We will make you green, even if it kills you! (And even if the country next door never heard of pollution control...)
As far as gas turbine power production is concerned, those aren't obsolete aircraft engines. They're purpose built, usually two turbines feeding exhaust to one boiler, which supplies a steam turbine. Three generators, and remarkable fuel efficiency - and they burn natural gas. (At least, the one down the road from me does.)
I recall seeing EMD ads for small town size diesel power stations, presumably built around packages similar to locomotive prime movers. Then the air conditioning landslide hit...
Chuck
EMD has been building generator packages since the beginning. There was rumored that their is an building in Connecticut that has a pre-war 567 u deck as an emergency generator. Also in Connecticut the VA hospital near New Haven has a 16-567C for emergency power. They differ from locomotives in the type of generator they have. EMD' A20 is an 8 pole machine that operates at 4160 volts when Y connected and turns at 900 rpm for 60 cycles. If you are going to try to use a locomotive you have to bypass the rectifier set up, run the engine at 720 rpm because its a 10 pole generator, and only has a nominal 600 volts.
The trick stuff that real emergency generators for fast start up is and oil/water heating system, a constant flow pre-lube system, an isolation breaker that that has a 2 second time delay to make sure the off site power is really off and then a full rack start to synchronous speed then slam the breaker to pick up the load. When the control senses that the offsite power is back up it can can synchronize with it close the isolation breaker, unload the diesel then open the emergency breaker and shut down the diesel.
In the past EMD has produced several "packaged" diesel generator sets: MP26 (16-567-D1) MP36 (567-D4) and MP45 (20-645-E4) They also sold skid units to distributors that designed all the controls and switch-gear. These would be the E1, E4, and E9 engines. A lot of these are in hospitals, the Navy communication center wherever you need power in an emergency. The E9's are used on drill rigs and I've been told that on some Caribbean island they are used as base load. There is also that pipe line pumping station across Panama to pump Alaskan oil from the Pacific to the Caribbean because the tankers are too large for the canal. The rarest engines are the Navy high shock engines used on the Nimitz class carriers.
As far as old locomotive engines are concerned the oddest application is a direct drive to a hammer mill that shreds old cars, school buses and other scrap metal. I also remember seeing 4 ex locomotive engine in a cutter head dredge.
Railroad Locomotives - My Blog
tomikawaTT As far as gas turbine power production is concerned, those aren't obsolete aircraft engines. They're purpose built, usually two turbines feeding exhaust to one boiler, which supplies a steam turbine. Three generators, and remarkable fuel efficiency - and they burn natural gas. (At least, the one down the road from me does.)
Are you talking to me? I had posted that someone I know who was a former pilot said a particular installation, in Bristol Twp PA, used obsolete aircraft engines. Now he may have been pulling my leg, and maybe I should trust more an internet denizen's statement, especially a railfan internet denizen's statement, but are you talking about EVERY peak plant in the country, turbine plants, or just the one down the road from you?
Brother Boylan, this internet denizen is a retired aircraft maintenance tech/supervisor who is very familiar with aircraft gas turbine engines. The ones with heavy duty shaft drives are comparatively low horsepower units. The ones with big power outputs are designed to blow all that power out the tailpipe.
I suppose someone, in a fit of desparation, could remove the front fan from a high-bypass turbofan and substitute a generator. Be sure to include a hefty reduction gear box, the fan turbine spins at 2500RPM or more. Seems to me that a purpose-built system that burns NG and not JP would make better economic sense, if for no better reason than not having to pare weight to a minimum.
Chuck (USAFret)
For an example of present-day 'mobile' power technology, see: https://www.ge-distributedpower.com/
For an example of 'fixed' turbines, see:
https://powergen.gepower.com/plan-build/products/gas-turbines/7f-04-gas-turbine.html
Combined-Cycle Gas Turbines:
How a Combined-Cycle Plant Works
Inner Workings of a Combined-Cycle Power Plant
A combined-cycle power plant uses both a gas and a steam turbine together to produce up to 50 percent more electricity from the same fuel than a traditional simple-cycle plant. The waste heat from the gas turbine is routed to the nearby steam turbine, which generates extra power.
https://powergen.gepower.com/plan-build/tools-resources/power-generation-basics/combined-cycle-power-plants.html
- Paul North.
Thank you brother tomikawaTT. Of course I still wonder if I'm to trust a godlike, in his own mind at least, former pilot, or a retired aircraft maintenance tech/supervisor who is very familiar with aircraft gas turbine engines. Come on, why should anyone expect the guys who fix the engines to know more about them than the guys who fly the planes?
By the way, this fellow also told me that propellers are actually fans to keep the pilots comfortable. As proof he described how much the pilots sweat as soon as the propeller stops spinning in mid flight.
I have heard of some sort of turbine set up being used for backup power for data centers and the like. It's been a while since I've been in that business, though.
Most such centers also have a substantial battery capability - the one I worked at could run for two hours at full rated load - so whatever time it takes to "spool up" a turbine-based backup genset can be a little longer than if it has to be able to take a load almost immediately.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I have two things to add here~
On Diego Garcia there is a power plant that uses several large diesels. I never was able to find out exactly what they were using, but when I needed a railroad 'fix' a bike ride out to the near the plant usually followed... Oh that sweet sound!!!
As for the discussion on gas turbines- the US Navy uses them for propulsion in ships as large as Cruisers. When they spool up it sounds a little bit like a 747. No joke. As for the bigger ships- I never had much time on any of the Carriers I was on to check out what was 'below decks' for power. My job was on the flight deck. Besides- being that most of my Carriers were CVNs- I likely couldn't tell you what I saw down there anyway..
StudeDave
SALfanCarriers would be nuclear-powered.
And that is what the "N" of "CVN" indicates,
Nuclear power implies steam turbines. The main difference between a nuclear powered and an oil-fired steam turbine is the source of the heat. Many years ago in TRAINS, a reader who also served in the Navy opined that the submarine service is the one place where steam replaced diesels.
OvermodSALfanCarriers would be nuclear-powered. And that is what the "N" of "CVN" indicates,
CSSHEGEWISCHSALfanCarriers would be nuclear-powered. Nuclear power implies steam turbines. The main difference between a nuclear powered and an oil-fired steam turbine is the source of the heat.
Nuclear power implies steam turbines. The main difference between a nuclear powered and an oil-fired steam turbine is the source of the heat.
I am well aware of all this.
My comment as to the CVNs had to do with how they get their electrical power and backup electrical power.
I'd bet there's a diesel or two down there, but again- being that there were also a couple'a reactors down there- I never even tried to get a look. And even if I had- I couldn't tell you what I saw.
As for the Cruiser, Destroyer, and Frigate I served on-- I can say their main source of propulsion was a suite of large gas turbines closely related to those found on wide bodied jets. They aren't routinely run on expensive jet fuel, but they do sound just like their air-borne cousins. These ships likely also had diesels down there, but I never could confirm that either. I do know at least one generator was a smaller turbine though.
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