rvos1979Funny thing was, Cat decided that they couldn't build a truck engine that would meet emissions, and left the market. The next couple years should be interesting.......
rvos1979 Funny thing was, Cat decided that they couldn't build a truck engine that would meet emissions, and left the market. The next couple years should be interesting.......
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It's interesting to note that EMD seemed to be focused on an EGR solution well before GE...about 3-4 years ago TRAINS had a bit about EMD being ahead in the race and speculated that GE could be at a serious disadvantage come 2015.
How things change...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Interesting and informative discussion. I have a question, though. Given the difficulty everyone has had developing the necessary technology, what if no one can produce an engine that meets both Tier IV specs and the RR requirements what then? would this open up a viable opportunity to consider large scale eletrification, or could some srt of a compromise to permit SCR or "almost" tier IV compliant locomotives to be built? Who would blink first? Or will the courts get involved?
ML
carnej1Cat build dozens of truck engines that meet Tier 4 every day and are selling all of them to customers who want them.
What kind of trucks?
Cat was a major supplier of heavy duty diesel truck engines for over the road freight movement. They did exit that market.
Cat may be building engines for huge trucks used in mines, etc. But they did exit the commercial over the road market because of emission standars.
greyhounds carnej1 Cat build dozens of truck engines that meet Tier 4 every day and are selling all of them to customers who want them. What kind of trucks? Cat was a major supplier of heavy duty diesel truck engines for over the road freight movement. They did exit that market. Cat may be building engines for huge trucks used in mines, etc. But they did exit the commercial over the road market because of emission standars.
carnej1 Cat build dozens of truck engines that meet Tier 4 every day and are selling all of them to customers who want them.
I was using the name "truck engines" to refer to the generic automotive derived medium power engines used in Genset locomotives , Navy and Coast Guard patrol vessels and indeed construction machinery and the smaller mining trucks. This includes the 3500 series used extensively in export locomotives, particularly those built in China and the C175 used in the F125 and PR43. The larger 3600 or C280 series, used in larger ships and in some rebuilt locomotives is not regarded as a truck engine. But many of the smaller engines, particularly in Europe, need to meet standards similar to Tier 4 and those engines can and do meet Tier 4 requirements, just not without SCR and urea.
M636C
greyhounds carnej1 Cat build dozens of truck engines that meet Tier 4 every day and are selling all of them to customers who want them. What kind of trucks? Cat was a major supplier of heavy duty diesel truck engines for over the road freight movement. They did exit that market. Cat may be building engines for huge trucks used in mines, etc. But they did exit the commercial over the road market because of emission standards.
Cat may be building engines for huge trucks used in mines, etc. But they did exit the commercial over the road market because of emission standards.
As pointed out that by the poster who I originally quoted, I was using his term as he used it. I probably should have written it as "truck" engines.
Cat has had a rocky road with the OTR truck market since the new emissions regulations went into effect. as you stated they exited the OEM market for OTR diesel engines. Then they decided to market a Cat branded line of vocational trucks built for them by International/ Navistar. The emissions compliant engines initially offered for the Cat truck line were a modified version of one of Cat's OTR engines (Cat sold the line to Navistar when they existed the market) using Navistars proprietary Exhaust Gas circulation system. That system,also used in International trucks, was a dismal failure and caused serious damage to both truck brands...
hey,
wouldn't be a riot if Lima Hamilton, the steam king with no diesel dreams, had the tier 4 secret?
Jim
I had not heard any reports on the Donner testing, but actually got to watch the first round of tested on Donner last year. I viewed them smoking now and then which they should never do according to the Tier IV exhaust regulations.
They are still on the Union Pacific and have been used around Donner and North up to Portland for a few months.
CZ
Lima Hamilton?
The combined company only turned out a few steam locomotives after the 1947 merger (last one being a NKP 2-8-4 in 1949). Granted they did make a valiant effort to promote the proposed 4-8-6 design....Does B-L-H even exist as a successor company anymore?
The only part left is BLH electronics which currently makes weigh cells.
What would have been the advantage of a 4-8-6 locomotive ? A larger firebox ?
You are correct in that the 4-8-6 would have a larger firebox, the intent was to have a large grate area to allow for a slower and more complete combustion of the coal.
Speaking clock hey, wouldn't be a riot if Lima Hamilton, the steam king with no diesel dreams, had the tier 4 secret?
When you consider the poor reputation that the Hamilton engine enjoyed, it isn't too surprising that the L-H diesel line was discontinued when the firm was absorbed by Baldwin.
The engine didn't have a poor reputation at the time. It simply hadn't been around long enough or had a chance to age enough to develop much of a negative reputation. And it was also a modern design, with a lot of room left for evolution unlike Alco's 539 and Baldwin's 606 that were about 20 years old at that time and had been taken about as far as they could. Its only major fault seemed to be the crankshaft, which some experts suspect wasn't properly balanced resulting in premature failures. A solvable problem had they stayed around.
Lima-Hamilton was doing quite well with new orders before the news was announced, with one well respected diesel historian even stating that they were on pace to surpass Baldwin in sales that year (Jerry Pinkepank in a great article in TRAINS during the 1960's about Lima's short lived foray into the diesel market, stated this). And Lima introduced several innovations, appearing for a time to be set to continue their long-standing steam reputation of excellance.
If Lima's attention to detail (which was prevalent in these designs) and their locomotive's excelling in grueling low-speed, heavy haul applications isn't enough, maybe the statistics can bear out the fact that it wasn't all bad. The bulk of production still was intact in 1963, well over a decade after production had concluded (164 of the 174 built). Many of these were in active service, and most that weren't were still stored serviceable at this late date. And the 10 New Haven casualties had their engines salvaged for re-use by the scrapper.
Not bad for a builder that outshopped only 174 diesel locomotives, had been gone well over a decade, had seen the inheritor of its legacy having itself left the market, and at a point where we were solidly in the 2nd generation of diesel railroading with age and generous trade-in programs having already taken care of many minority makes and a fair number of EMD's as well.
And Armco kept the Lime legacy alive into the 1980's in one of the harshest environments there is for switchers. That pretty much bears out the fact that rather than being fragile beasts that never worked right and regularly broke down, they did just the opposite and could withstand abuse and still keep earning money for their owners.
Like I said, not bad even though history in recent decades has just about forgotten the positives from this short-lived and final chapter of a proud company's legacy.
Leo_AmesLima-Hamilton was doing quite well with new orders before the news was announced, with one well respected diesel historian even stating that they were on pace to surpass Baldwin in sales that year (Jerry Pinkepank in a great article in TRAINS during the 1960's about Lima's short lived foray into the diesel market, stated this).
What Pinkepank ignores is that the year following the cessation of Lima Diesels the orders for everything, and switchers especially, fell to near nothing. And since Lima only built switchers (or two switchers on one frame) even if they did outsell Baldwin that wouldn't have amounted to very many sales. Other than the free piston gassifier Lima did not have any engine in development which could be used for mainline power.
It will be very hard for EMD to recover any percentage of loco sales in the domestic market. I read in the GE web site that they have 1000 orders for the Tier V locos. I wonder if EMD has any orders since they have no product for the market.
I know they are in the rebuilding business now of older units using the 710 ECO product, but that will probably not continue forever. I had read an article on EMD working with LNG also.
What is the history of the Evolution Series Tier 4?
GE has invested $600 million in the Evolution Series since its introduction in 2005. GE Transportation leveraged resources from other GE businesses and GE’s Global Research Center to develop the new Tier 4 engine technology. In August 2012, GE unveiled the prototype for our next Evolution Series Tier 4 Locomotive.
Tier 4 locomotives began field testing across the United States in 2013 and have logged over 10,000 miles to date. In September 2014, GE revealed it has received over 1,000 Evolution Series Tier 4 Locomotive orders.
DS4-4-1000 Leo_Ames Lima-Hamilton was doing quite well with new orders before the news was announced, with one well respected diesel historian even stating that they were on pace to surpass Baldwin in sales that year (Jerry Pinkepank in a great article in TRAINS during the 1960's about Lima's short lived foray into the diesel market, stated this). What Pinkepank ignores is that the year following the cessation of Lima Diesels the orders for everything, and switchers especially, fell to near nothing. And since Lima only built switchers (or two switchers on one frame) even if they did outsell Baldwin that wouldn't have amounted to very many sales. Other than the free piston gassifier Lima did not have any engine in development which could be used for mainline power.
Leo_Ames Lima-Hamilton was doing quite well with new orders before the news was announced, with one well respected diesel historian even stating that they were on pace to surpass Baldwin in sales that year (Jerry Pinkepank in a great article in TRAINS during the 1960's about Lima's short lived foray into the diesel market, stated this).
My point and I suspect Pinkepank's point as well, wasn't that they were on the verge of being a major force in the later phases of dieselization with a shot at a long-term future and perhaps eventually going head to head against GM.
Rather, that the product and Lima's diesel program wasn't in nearly the dire straights that such a short production run before being swallowed up would've suggested in hindsight.
I'm pretty confident that Lima-Hamilton made the right choice since unless the free-piston research underway had truely been the wave of the future, it's difficult to see how they could've made it alone into the coming decades and perhaps even still be active today. Too little, too late, and GM and eventual competitor GE were just too big.
What I do believe though is that BLH would've been wise to have taken more advantage of their engineering expertise in the locomotive field, creating products that incorporated the best aspects of the Lima products into the existing Baldwin designs.
In hindsight I shouldn't have responded to this as I appear to have sparked an O.T (although interesting) discussion that probably should have it's own thread on the "Locomotives" forum....
I would be curious as to what the point of bringing Lima Hamilton up is? Is there any relevance to discussing Tier IV or was that just idle trolling?
carnej1 Speaking clock hey, wouldn't be a riot if Lima Hamilton, the steam king with no diesel dreams, had the tier 4 secret? In hindsight I shouldn't have responded to this as I appear to have sparked an O.T (although interesting) discussion that probably should have it's own thread on the "Locomotives" forum.... I would be curious as to what the point of bringing Lima Hamilton up is? Is there any relevance to discussing Tier IV or was that just idle trolling?
"Lima a la Armco - will Lima�s first diesel customer be the last operator of Limas?", by Marre, Louis A., from Trains, January 1973, pg. 40 &etc.
Leo_AmesWhat I do believe though is that BLH would've been wise to have taken more advantage of their engineering expertise in the locomotive field, creating products that incorporated the best aspects of the Lima products into the existing Baldwin designs.
It also would have been wise if BLH would have kept its Baldwin expertise. According to Kirkland in "Dawn of the Diesel Age" the BLH merger was engineered by Westinghouse and Westinghouse brought in thier own engineers who had no diesel locomotive background. Apparently, according to Kirkland, many very basic mistakes were made by this new staff.
Would Generator Set locomotives have cut the diesel fumes and carbon dioxide emissons more effectively than what the EPA is having GE and EMD do with the new road locomotives?
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carnej1I would be curious as to what the point of bringing Lima Hamilton up is? Is there any relevance to discussing Tier IV or was that just idle trolling
chutton01 carnej1 I would be curious as to what the point of bringing Lima Hamilton up is? Is there any relevance to discussing Tier IV or was that just idle trolling Possibly this topic?Proposed L-H Free Piston Gasifier Locomotive
carnej1 I would be curious as to what the point of bringing Lima Hamilton up is? Is there any relevance to discussing Tier IV or was that just idle trolling
Possibly this topic?Proposed L-H Free Piston Gasifier Locomotive
I realize that there is some work going on with free piston engines in hydraulic pumps and generator sets (using linear motor/generators) but I haven't read that anyone is offering it as a solution to the locomotive industry for emissions compliance, though I would imagine it is scalable..
http://www.gizmag.com/dlr-free-piston-linear-generator-range-extender/27736/
A Very different system that what L-H and EMD proposed in the 1950's..
Andrew Falconer Would Generator Set locomotives have cut the diesel fumes and carbon dioxide emissons more effectively than what the EPA is having GE and EMD do with the new road locomotives?
The Tier IV emissions regulations do not say anything about Co2 emissions but do regulate carbon monoxide levels..
Yep - since they spend so much time parked on the repair tracks.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Hopefully EMD relocates the turbo/exhaust stack to the rear of the unit like GE, and reconfigures their radiator similar to GE's to cut down problems in unventilated tunnels. Perhaps their tier 4 unit will be called a SD4x(insert hp here)xACe. As I see the 70 series designation no longer being used.
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