"Rail doesn't pay its fare share"

[DSchmitt]

If you don't include capital expenses you are comparing apples and oranges.
You can't drive unless you have the auto and in most cases a road.
You can't ride the train unless you have the rail vehicle and track and right of way

In round numbers for all rail

Capital costs $8.7 billion
Operating costs $8.0 billion
Fares $4.2 billion
Subsidy $12.5 billion

Heavy Rail
Capitol $4.6 billion
Operating $4.3 billion
Fare $2.5 billion
Subsidy $ 6.4 billion If Capitol were not counted the subsidy would still be $1.8 billion

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

Mark -- what's the current story behind NS "experimental" train 25A? That's freight in the NEC (I've seen pictures of GP-40-2s and Genesis engines as power, with the Genesis perhaps being more for train-control 'protection' than actual motive power) and I presume it runs faster than 30mph.

It's not running right now. There was some serious thought to making the experimental service permanent, perhaps leasing some Genesis units (to allow 60 mph on the NEC versus the 50 allowed by the LSL on the GP40-2s) . What stopped it was the huge increase in business levels this year. It's been a struggle to keep the existing network of trains in locomotives and crews without putting on more service. I suspect that the issue will resurface at the next business downturn or when resources catch up with traffic levels.

For me, seeing 4 shiny GP40-2s doing what they were built to do 25 years ago was a magic moment for me. Almost like gettting my wish in the "time machine" thread.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by slotracer

Speaking of flaws, "A Major portion of americans want Amtrak to exist"....if this was so, many mor people would be voting with their dollars and riding it, and it would not require massive subsidies to buy down the cost of operating the system o that ticketrs can be sold at anywhere near market value....to the minute percentage of the population that will ride it. I don't mean to sound insulting, just getting to the fact that times have moved on, people have moved on, for right or wrong, yet we continue to fund something that the population, and times have mostly rejected.

If I had my way, TV's would be abolished in facor of old radios with great shows to listen to, apple pies would be scratch made and cool in open windows and Auto teechnology would go back a number of decades, people would live at a slower pace and not need to get everywhere by air so fast, neighbors would know each other and a sense of community would return (Yes unbelievably I am a republican) but I realize these great things are unfortunately past, and I/We cannot make them return on a mass scale. I can scratch make a pie and get involved in my community, but I cannot make the passenger train vibrant and popular again......I reaize those things I can help change and those things beyond my control is all.......

Slot-

You're still missing the point. It doesn't matter if anyone ever rides a single Amtrak train today, tomorrow or ever. If the will of the people is for Amtrak trains to operate - then they will!

I think, if you do some seaching, you will find that every time asked, a majority of Americans want more train service whether they themselves would use it or not.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ohlemeier

QUOTE: Originally posted by slotracer

Speaking of flaws, "A Major portion of americans want Amtrak to exist"....if this was so, many mor people would be voting with their dollars and riding it, and it would not require massive subsidies to buy down the cost of operating the system o that ticketrs can be sold at anywhere near market value....to the minute percentage of the population that will ride it. I don't mean to sound insulting, just getting to the fact that times have moved on, people have moved on, for right or wrong, yet we continue to fund something that the population, and times have mostly rejected.

If I had my way, TV's would be abolished in facor of old radios with great shows to listen to, apple pies would be scratch made and cool in open windows and Auto teechnology would go back a number of decades, people would live at a slower pace and not need to get everywhere by air so fast, neighbors would know each other and a sense of community would return (Yes unbelievably I am a republican) but I realize these great things are unfortunately past, and I/We cannot make them return on a mass scale. I can scratch make a pie and get involved in my community, but I cannot make the passenger train vibrant and popular again......I reaize those things I can help change and those things beyond my control is all.......

This is like living in the past. Just because you THINK things are old=fashioned doesn't mean it's so.

Rail is on a renaissance. Light rail, commuter rail, long-distance rail.
Commuter rail ridership is increasing. AMTRAK HAS ITS MOST RIDERS EVER!

Speaking of radio, an overwhelming majority of the public - 3/4 - has rejected AM radio. Yet it still exists and has an audience. So.... we shouldn't have talk radio or sports radio? The market is still there.

A good number of Americans ride trains. Those numbers would increase if more resources and routes were provided.

Yet, some "railfans" want to ignore this fact and want to rage against Amtrak like it's the biggest evil in the world.

I think if you check it out you'll find Amtrak is just about at an all time low for overall market share, so saying ridership is at an all time high is a bit misleading. Now, it's not Amtrak's fault - there's been little investment, so growth hasn't been possible.

[rrnut282]

Shouldn't it be obvious by now that no form of transportation involving machinery can pay it's full capital and infrastructure costs? To reach the critical mass necessary to be self-sustaining has required government intervention (subsidies) to fund infrastructure almost without exception. The status quo will not change without a massive paradigm shift in how transportation is viewed (from an "entitlement that is granted by varoious mechanisms by government" to one of "if you want it, you pay for it, and make it work")
Then, and only then, serious reform could (not definitely) take place.

[oltmannd]

Here's opinion poll results on public support for Amtrak:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/stories/data080502.htm

[DSchmitt]

Federal Highway funding FY 2000

Total Highway funding: 128.5 billion
Funding sources
Bond process: $11.2 billion, Investment income $7.5 billion, Other Highway user taxes $11.8 billion, General Funds, $17.1 billion, Tolls $5.4 billion , Other Highway user fees 75.5 billion

[kevarc]

"There was some serious thought to making the experimental service permanent, perhaps leasing some Genesis units (to allow 60 mph on the NEC versus the 50 allowed by the LSL on the GP40-2s) "

While the engines may want to go fast, the rolling stock will hold it back.

[Overmod]

There are assuredly a large number of cars capable of going fast on the NEC... the MHC stock, for example, which to my knowledge will fit nicely anywhere Amtrak goes...

I personally would like to see whether Triple Crown via the tunnels could evolve a meaningful lane service over NEC in the Northeast. I know the lane traffic hasn't evolved yet, but I can think of a few traffic sources at each end that might allow a reasonable balance of both car loadings and frequency (in a deregulated fee environment, of course). The RoadRailers ought to offer the necessary combination of low tare weight, low clearance height, insulatable roof, good tracking, and off-ROW "switchability" to make operations to, say, Sunnyside or interchange with the NY&A practical. There might also be some possibilities with interchange via Croxton to other lanes for non-electrified trains, although I think that 'pilot' operation of RoadRailer trains (with engines shut down) ought to be possible with little more than an 'out-and-back' move of one of the locomotives at Sunnyside...

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

There are assuredly a large number of cars capable of going fast on the NEC... the MHC stock, for example, which to my knowledge will fit nicely anywhere Amtrak goes...

I personally would like to see whether Triple Crown via the tunnels could evolve a meaningful lane service over NEC in the Northeast. I know the lane traffic hasn't evolved yet, but I can think of a few traffic sources at each end that might allow a reasonable balance of both car loadings and frequency (in a deregulated fee environment, of course). The RoadRailers ought to offer the necessary combination of low tare weight, low clearance height, insulatable roof, good tracking, and off-ROW "switchability" to make operations to, say, Sunnyside or interchange with the NY&A practical. There might also be some possibilities with interchange via Croxton to other lanes for non-electrified trains, although I think that 'pilot' operation of RoadRailer trains (with engines shut down) ought to be possible with little more than an 'out-and-back' move of one of the locomotives at Sunnyside...

I agree that Intermodal service to LI is great idea and Roadrailers a good fit for the service. You could even use "all purpose" well cars, like NS did on their NEC experiment last fall. I suspect the problem is the money doesn't smell green enough to the Amtrak and the commuter agencies.

Up until Gunn, Amtrak did all they could to drive frt business from the NEC - the cost per car mile was absurd. Also, part of the reason Conrail quit using electrics on the NEC was the refusal of Amtrak to come to a resonable agreement on payment for "juice" - watthour meter data not withstanding.

I think the commuter agencies have the same point of view. There appears to be little incentive for them to earn revenue in this manner. It won't happen unless the guy at the top has the vision and pushes for it. Too bad.

[Anonymous]

If the reason that Amtrak does not advertise much is because they are full tells us something. Perhaps it is time to add more cars to the train set or add an additional train. Our policy with Trinity Railway Express was to add an additional car when capacity reached 80%. Of course for Amtrak to add additional cars they must have them in their WORKING inventory.

[jeaton]

Amtrak reports that the shortage of sleepers has hurt that revenue for this year. Sleeper business is described as "sold out". On the other hand, I doubt that Amtrak is any where near that situation with coach capacity.

As with everything else in Amtrak's budget, advertising dollars are tight. I think that there also a very concerted effort made to avoid advertising something that can't be provided with any decent degree of reliability. Amtrak has been showing a reasonable rate growth in the last few years. The issue that is addressed by Amtrak management is what mix of expenditures on advertising and fleet repair provides the greater return.

I, for one, would not suggest a change unless it was my job and I had all the studies and facts necessary to make that suggestion.

Jay