Denver to South Joint Line

[daveklepper]

The joint D&RGW-AT&SF line from Denver to Peublo had three passenger trains during the 60's: (1) Run through of the Colorado Eagle from St. Louis with MP power running through, a train in solid MP paint scheme with dome lounge,but not with a real observation car when I road it. Usually power that also had the D&RGW logo next to the MP sunburst was used. The rear car was the 6-10 lightweight sleeper off the Wichita-Herendon mixed train. As I remember, the power was an E-7 A and B units, but possibly there were E8's. The Burlington Route's (actually Colorado Southern - Fort Worth and Denver City) Texas Zephyr ran until September 9th 1967. This often had the classic stainless steel E5'A's, with an E7B. I don't remember any E5B's but possibly others do. This was also a full coach and sleeper train, all stainless steel, usually with one or two dome coaches. (3) The Panorama or Scenic Limited, which was a separate train between Pueblo and Grand Junction and combined with the Prospector between Grand Junction and Salt Lake City . Dining service was in a dome-lounge originally ordered for the Chessie and sold to the D&RGW with other food service cars, including possibly the diner used on the Prospector (ovenight Denver-Salt Lake City via the Moffat). Whe I rode it there was a flat-top D&RGW yellow and black coach and a combine. Between Pueblo and an Denver this train was combined with the AT&SF lightweight stainless sided sleeper and coach that came off either the SF Chief or the Chief (but not the Super Chief) at Raton or possibly Alberqurque . It was also a train that was used to ferry Rock Island equipment between Denver and Colorado Springs to balance requirements for the Rocky Mountain Rocket, which split at Limon with part going to Denver and part to Colorado Springs. Power was not always the same, with D&RGW or AT&SF power used, and the D&RGW power could be F7's or Alco PA's. So if you model the line you can easily have passenger equipment from four railroads.

[MP57313]

I did not live in the area when these trains ran, but I did go to Colo Springs in 2002. The ATSF-C&S "station" is now in a office park. The separate Santa Fe route north of the station through town is long gone; evidently the Santa Fe trains "moved west" to the Rio Grande line around 1972. There is still a rusty remnant of the Santa Fe south of the station. The Rio Grande station is in good shape as Giuseppe's restaurant.

The Rock Island roundhouse in Colo Springs is still there, used as a trolley barn/work shop for a local museum.

[mudchicken]

Our old buddy, the Chico Chief (Train 198)

[Anonymous]

TX Zephyr C&S/FWD 1&2, and successors (in the mid 60's they were combined with 7&8 after the SHZ came off in early 1966, leaving trains 2&7) normally ran with E5A&B sets, until one of the A units died. Then it usually had 1 trainset with an E5AB combo and the other with an E8A/E5B combo. The E5s were SS, of course. For the last couple of years, the trainsets were pathetic shadows of their former selves (the ex-DZ consists were gone after about 1963): generally 5-6+ cars of mixed headend, including lots of offline, boxcars, and ex-troop sleeper bags, including an RPO (as likely a HW as the Silver Messenger), one 6-6-4 (occasionally 10-6) sleeper (take a bet on whose that was on any given day--again, as likely to be offline out of the Pullman pool as a CBQ car), a couple of chair cars (usually silver-painted FWD HWs that actually rode well and were sort of clean, but also a few really run down, filthy, early SS CS/FWD cars from the 1940 TZ got mixed in there) and the Silver Bowl/Silver Tray on the rear as far as FTW.

I remember it well.

Actually got several tours through the E5s--the engine rooms were literally oil baths from the poorly maintained prime movers throwing out oil all over the place. Ruined several sets of clothes. Really sad at the end.

By the way, the RPOs Silver Messenger/Silver Tidings and Obs/Diners Silver Bowl and Silver Tray were some of the longest single-unit pax cars ever produced, coming in close to 90'.

Unfortunately, the TZ never had any domes. Its finest hour was when it used the original DZ consists that were displaced when the DZ got all that new equipment. Before that was the 1940 mixed consist with the rebuilt Pullmans, and after was that dog's breakfast consist mentioned above.

[daveklepper]

If i remember correctly, also the Burlington System bought some of the C&NW straight-sided lightweight coaches that were made redundant when the UP trains moved to the Milwaukee and painted them silver to match the Budd equipment. I rode them on the Arksarben Zephyr after the articulated train came off and I would imagine those are the straight side coahces you are referring to. I don't think the "Q" ever bought any straight side lightweights new. Am I correct? Also, my inderstanding was that occasionally a dome would show up on the Texas Zephyr during off seasons when not required on the Twin or the Denver. The CZ of course had its specially lettered equipment and would not usually be used outside that service. But I might be confusing my memory with the AT&SF's Chicago-Houston (through coach to Galveston) Texas Chief which did have a dome lounge on occasion. It also had drop sleepers, one going only as far as Wichita. I'm glad to know the roundhouse in Colorado Springs is being used for such a good purpose! Do they sitll occasionally run the steam engine on the Pikes Peak cograil? I know the Broadmore is still is business, what about the Antlers?

[Anonymous]

daveklepper--

RE TX Zephyr-

1956 to 1963/64 +/- was ex-DZ articulated consist. No place to insert much of anything and I don't recall ever seeing any domes. In fact, the SHZ FTW thru car got cut in ahead of the bag/power car at DAL for the 45 min run to FTW. After the dog's breakfast consist came on, there was no incentive to provide the luxury of a dome on what was by then a third rate (almost accommodation) run. May have had some charters where they ran in a dome, but the only people who ran domes in TX until 1967 was T&P/MP, and those came off by about 1966. Another issue as well--domes never worked well in TX and the SW because the HVAC/steam heat just couldn't handle the load of that big glassed-in dome space. The dome would greenhouse in the summer and freeze on cold cloudy winter days. This was a constant problem on the 2 TX Eagles and later on ATSF 15-16 when the big domes came on. It was even a problem in spots on ATSF 1-2, which ran through the Panhandle only but gave them far more dome HVAC problems than the northern line trains ever did. Remember, the ATSF generally missed most of the hot areas of the SW on the Super and, to a lesser extent, the Chief, if just for the reason of higher latitude on the northern line and, of course, in northern NM and AZ, although they ran through some of it at night.

The TX Chief (15-16) ran with an ex-Super flattop lounge and got a big dome from the Chief after it was discontinued in 1967 until ATK, when ATSF sold most of the cars.

Despite what the model companies sell, no other trains in TX carried domes on any regular basis.

ATSF 11, 12, 15, & 16 had drop sleepers all over the place, as did the train with the most numbers in the world (Calif Special and branches), and of course 15-16 had a drop TRAIN (115/116) to DAL, usually 4 cars because with a fifth they had to add another brakeman. That train came on and off at Gainesville and carried 1 bag and 2 chairs (or a combine and 2 chairs) plus a 10-6, all CHI-DAL. In heavy holiday periods, they'd run it with a complete consist through to CHI, but no domes. GAL came off in the mid-60's, with passengers sent to the same intercity bus down the Gulf Freeway that the other RRs still advertised.

Did the TZ get any of the ex-CNW chair cars?? No, we should have fared so well. We never saw anything that nice once the DZ consist left. The straight-side chair cars I'm referring to that ran on the TZ were heavyweights dating back to the teens and 20's that C&S/FWD painted silver (no shadow stripes by then). These were cars that they painted up for the SHZ and 7/8 when they started going downhill. But, they were generally clean, refurbished with plain but serviceable interiors, air conditioned (when it worked), and generally many orders of magnitude better than the falling-apart SS junk, which they never had maintained in about 25 years and weren't about to start now, that they started assigning to the train. The train crews and others in the know told me back then on several occasions that the pax tolerated the old battleships a whole lot better than the fleabag modern chair cars that were filthy, didn't work, rode rough, etc. Ironic, huh?

Ever read "To Hell in a Day Coach"? It ought to be required reading for anyone who has an interest in why pax service did what it did or what can be done about it now. That was every train that crossed the border into TX except ATSF's, after about 1958-62, including the TZ, and in most other states as well.

People tend to remember good things like the Super, DZ, COLA/SF/PL, CZ in its better days, etc, and forget about the atrocities committed against a still-loyal clientele who in some cases (TX Special was one, for example) figuratively had to be beaten off the trains with sticks. The vast majority of pax trains in this country during the decade before ATK could probably be described truthfully as "rolling cesspools".

Don't forget that SP's shenanigans with the Sunset (and Lark in CA) were some of the most publically-repeated reasons used to force a restructuring of pax service and the formation of ATK. And look at the Sunset now. Some things never change.....

[daveklepper]

Thanks for correcting my own memories. Actually, the first time I ever rode a dome car was on the Texas Chief going to Wichita from Chicago around Jan or Feb 1959. The train was clean and well maintained. The train left Deaborn after 10PM, and I remember hearing a concert in Otrchestra Hall with the CSO and john Martinon conducting, then I had space in the drop sleeper. I did not go to bed directly since I wanted my first dome experience. I rode the TC many times afterward, including repeats to Wichita. The real journey came after Jones Hall was opened in Houston. All my fellow engineers at BBN wanted to run their own pet experiments and a load of test equipment was left for me to try to get back to Cambridge, MA without spending a fortune. This was September 1962 and I must say I took advantage of the situation . I bought a first class ticket with sleeper space all the way to Boston, managed to check in all the baggage, but then the baggage car happened to be "missing" on the TC from Houston that day. (I think it may have been added in Fort Worth.) Anyway, about half the luggage racks on both sides of the coach adjacent to the sleepers was occupied by BBN test equipment, and I had a roomette in the sleeper. When I arrived at Dearborn Station, I got the help of several redcaps, and Parlellee actually honored their commitment to get the stuff to LaSalle Street Station. I think the New England States was the train to Boston. This was while the Century and the other name NYC trains were still running . The NES had a genuine baggage car, and there wasn't any trouble in getting the equipment to the baggage room at South Station, and I simply handed the appropriate baggage checks to the Instrumentation People at BBN, Cambridge, problem solved . But another problem arose. My dearest girl friend was supposed to spend a weekend at Tanglewood, the summer home of the Boston Symphony, with me, and the fact that I cancelled that date, which I could have enjoyed by flying back after the opening, ended our relationship, and I am sitll single! Jones Hall was opened with a Houston Symphony concert with John Barabarolli conducting and Danial Barenboim as Pianist in the Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto. I don't remember what the rest of the music playes was, but the reviews were good and the concert was a great one. Of course I enjoyed the train ride, both diners served ecent food, and never expected my girlfriend to show lack of understanding of my delimna.