Freezing engine question

[Anonymous]

I have read that when diesel locomotives are shut down in cold weather the water must be drained out of the engine and radiators. Is this always the case? Why is this? Obviously, water freezing in the engine would be disastrous. Is anti-freeze not used in diesel engines? If not, why not? I have only seen this mentioned when talking about EMD engines, is this not a problem for GE engines because they are 4 cycle and EMD’s are 2 cycle?

Thanks for helping me understand this.

[Randy Stahl]

I've seen GEs ALCOs FMs EMDS all ruined because the water didn't get drained. Anti freeze attacks internal parts, seals gaskets etc. and is pricey for 200 gallons of water.
Randy

[mudchicken]

Randy:

Is most of the coolant used back there still water with a bunch of borate tablets thrown in as a chaser?

[Randy Stahl]

Yea ..... tastes kinda salty, but it won't hurt you!!!!
Randy

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Another reason I've heard regarding the non-use of antifreeze in diesel locomotives is the possibility of leakage from the cooling system into the crankcase lube. Ethylene glycol will ruin lube oil with the consequent damage to main bearings and other moving parts.

[Anonymous]

The only prime movers that use antifreeze are the new GE HDL 6000hp and the EMD 265H 6000hp engines. As for why, I don't know.

[rvos1979]

Don't forget about the Caterpillar-repowered locomotives, CAT 3512 and 3612 engines use antifreeze too.

I wouldn't be too worried about water getting in the oil, as it is usually under fairly low pressure, it's usually the other way around. I'm not to familiar with the crankcase design of the EMD block, though, so the above statement is strictly opinion. Water may wipe out mains and rods, but raw fuel will do it too, and usually much quicker. Randy, did you ever hear of many injector cup leaks (the usual cause of fuel in the oil) in your job? This seemed to happen often in our Series 60 Detroits in the truck shop I used to work at.

Another question for Randy: Did you ever work with some sort of auxilliary power unit (i.e., Kim Hotstart)? We installed four in our SD40s on the WSOR, and they seemed to be problematic, either could not keep the cabs warm enough, or cooling water warm enough, we had a lot of radiator problems after installation. These setups are a great way to save fuel, just wish we could get the bugs out of them.

Randy Vos
WSOR engineer

[jchnhtfd]

Mark's got the main problem -- ethylene glycol contamination in the crankcase. Water in the oil isn't that much of a hassle (although it isn't really recommended...!) as it may evaporate and it isn't that hard to separate (all large marine diesels have separators). Ethylene glycol (antifreeze), on the other hand, doesn't evaporate easily and is soluble in oil, so it is very very hard to separate -- and even small amounts of it ruin the lubricity (combination of slipperiness and stick to the bearingness) of the oil. And a bad main bearing is very bad news...

[wcfan4ever]

I recall the WC GP35M's having a problem like this. I beleive it was the 4006 and also the 4010 had this problem. Randy: do you know why it seemed like the GP35M's had this problem?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rvos1979

Don't forget about the Caterpillar-repowered locomotives, CAT 3512 and 3612 engines use antifreeze too.

I wouldn't be too worried about water getting in the oil, as it is usually under fairly low pressure, it's usually the other way around. I'm not to familiar with the crankcase design of the EMD block, though, so the above statement is strictly opinion. Water may wipe out mains and rods, but raw fuel will do it too, and usually much quicker. Randy, did you ever hear of many injector cup leaks (the usual cause of fuel in the oil) in your job? This seemed to happen often in our Series 60 Detroits in the truck shop I used to work at.

Another question for Randy: Did you ever work with some sort of auxilliary power unit (i.e., Kim Hotstart)? We installed four in our SD40s on the WSOR, and they seemed to be problematic, either could not keep the cabs warm enough, or cooling water warm enough, we had a lot of radiator problems after installation. These setups are a great way to save fuel, just wish we could get the bugs out of them.

Randy Vos
WSOR engineer

You are right. I totally forgot about the little kitty cats running around out there.

As for water in the oil, that happens a lot in all diesel engines big or small. The only things keeping the two apart are a few o-rings on most of them. The usual causes are a hole in the cylinder liner which is caused by cavitation erosion or in the case of an EMD there are two water pipes per cylinder that are sources of leaks also.

[Randy Stahl]

Lots of problems over the years with fuel in the crankcase, bad injectors. leaking fuel jumpers etc. usually means dumping 200 gallons of lube oil and putting in new oil. I saw a Kimstart machine on an NS SD40 the other day , looked like a clever installation, I havn't had opportunity to learn much about them as the WC and now the CN do not have any. I have seen a WSOR SD40 a while back with the installation, too bad it's not performing. I'm not sure they will even run the cab heaters I think you have the same cab heaters we have and they require about 4000 watts I don't think they output that high.
On the WC 4000s I don't think we ever got em right, they were not good locomotives.
Randy

[rvos1979]

If I remember correctly, they are supposed to run only the sidewall heaters, and I guess this is also how the loco's batteries are kept charged.

The install is actually pretty good, I think the main problem is just the fact there is a small 2 cylinder engine trying to keep 200+ gallons of water warm. I guess what happens is the corners of the radiators freeze up, after repeated cycles (especially in our Wisconsin winters) the radiators just start leaking. I know of at least 2 of our four installs have had new radiators put in since the Hotstarts have been installed, which was in 2002.

I was also told by someone that Kim Hotstart never had an install like this before, so everybody learned off of these installs.

Randy Vos
WSOR engineer

[Randy Stahl]

Yea ,, the side wall heaters won't do much in really cold weatherso that appears to be normal. Seems more and more RRs are trying this technology, I'm sure a few more years of developement the bugs will work out. In the meantime buy a bunch of 16 645 E3 engine blocks.
Randy