Trains / Security / Borders / ETC.

[Anonymous]

A while back (cannot remember which thread) I posted a remark about the US doing more to protect our borders. Today I read an AOL news article and the following comment is from that article:

"But ABC News, citing anonymous sources, reported Saturday night that al-Qaida planned to send terrorists across the Mexican border into the United States, and that suicide attacks were being planned in the city, possibly using trucks."

Now for a question for the railroaders and security people. There was an article in the Trains mag a while back and it showed the SP line in very rough terrain and a Border Patrol agent checking the train somewhere. Of course the article was in the recent past and the article was about a time even further back. But are trains inspected at the borders for those who are not train crews who might be hiding in the various cars? Now I understand that every detail of security can not be discussed, but what is taking place in and around railroads that have trains going and coming from across the borders? What other measures can the government / military / police / citizens do to insure safety at our borders?

I am a firm believer that we must do much more at our borders and between legal, current crossing points. Border Patrol agents are outmanned and outgunned by many crossing the border illegally. The thread where I posted the "border protection" remark also discussed the National Parks and how much crime had gotten out of hand in them, partly because of those crossing the border illegally.

Do we need another "wake up call" before more is done? I certainly hope not. Of course riding a train into the country from across the border may not be the route of choice, but it is a possibility. And there are many other possibilities for entry.

This could become a controversial topic. But nevertheless is a topic we must consider, become aware of, and strive to prevent.

The floor is open for discussion. Let's try not be too tacky in voicing our opinions. I certainly hope I have not been so.

[cherokee woman]

Jim,

I, for one, do not think you are being tacky. You have brought up an interesting, and
very thought provoking post. Our borders DO need to be patrolled more now. It is
somewhat amazing how many "illegal aliens" can just cross the border into the USA
and no body asks to see papers, if they do it in broad daylight. But then again, they
are more than likely being smuggled in in any and every kind of transportation vehicle;
and there are probably more than a few sneaking in on trains. And here we thought
plain old hoboes were a problem!

[Junctionfan]

I just came up with an interesting idea for the railroad and customs to seriously consider on doing in order to halt illegal aliens from "taking a free ride". All box cars should be made so that they are air tight. Any terrorist for example that would use this form of entery would need oxygen masks. It is along way from mexico to a large city in the US. The North American governments-particularly the U.S, should have a giant metal detector like scanner to X-ray the contents for heat. I figure the contraption would look roughly like a wierd looking signal bridge. Trains restricted to 10mph through check point. During mainline action, there should be anti-enterence detector devices on the doors that can be activated and deactivated for switching only to be activated when closed by industry workers. Locks can only be unlocked by railroad police, regular police, federal agents and customs officers (increases security if only the few can open.) the cars can be monitored by railroad car control and if alarm sets off, the Department of Homeland security or the F.B.I or whom ever can respond to it.

[Anonymous]

Read my last post.
BNSFrailfan.

[Anonymous]

Los Angeles is the second largest city in the United States and only 150 miles from the Mexico border. San Diego is only 25 miles away. Houston is the fourth largest city in the U.S. and only 375 miles from Mexico and Phoenix 200 miles. These are all within a days reach and very large cities and should have the highest security in place.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes


Do we need another "wake up call" before more is done?

Yes, it seems that the majority of American do not seem to care about securing either border.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan


The North American governments-particularly the U.S, should have a giant metal detector like scanner to X-ray the contents for heat.

An infrared imaging system might work for this.

[edblysard]

Hummm...
Lets start at the border proper.
How many of you have actually crossed the border into Mexico, or back into the US?
Best have at the least two hours of extra time, about four on a heavy weekend.

Trucks?
Professional inspectors are the best defense, they are trained to detect the slight abnormality a smuggler shows.
Any suspicion, the trcks gets inspected, weighed, the weight compared against the manifest, and the dogs turned lose.
And discrepcency in weight, too much or too little according to what it should be, the truck is opened.

Last month, my wife, a Officer of the State of Texas, crossed into Mexico for the weekend.
On the way back, because she drives a Durango, the border patrol pulled her, and a Blazer out of line.
Her state badge meant nothing, even though the same agent had chatted with her on her way into Mexico..
It isn't the legal entry points, no super X ray, infra red device can replace a trained patrol officer.

Its the thousand of miles of unbelieveably rugged, desolate countryside where the illegal aliens enter in force.
The gate runners get caught more often than not.

Trust me, unless your willing to reassign around 1/3 of the standing military services to border patrol, you cant stop them.
And its not just Mexico, our Canadian members can vouch for the miles of border almost impossible to patrol.
Yet the desperate poor will walk across the Texas desert, just to earn less than minimum wage, diging ditches, mowing lawns and cleaning house, because what they have at home is so far below the US poverty level as to be beyond what you could imagine.

Oh, and the idea about air tight railcars?
Early this year, a covered hopper was discovered with several dead illegals inside.
Some as young as 15.
Great idea...kill 'em on the way in, saves on deportation cost and lowers the welfare rolls....

Do got a question for most of us...how many of you, except CW, are "Native Americans"?

So, like me, most of you are the result of immigrants fleeing their country for a better life here!

I am only two generation away from the boat, and I bet a lot of you are too.

And the owner of the 18 wheeler, abandoned outside of Victoria, jammed full of Mexicans locked inside, some of whom died from the heat, was just sentenced to a prision term.

You cant stop them, or the terrorist, at the border, there is just to much real estate to cover.

Any one know how many miles of coastline America has?
Guard all of it?
How?

Ed

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes



There was an article in the Trains mag a while back and it showed the SP line in very rough terrain and a Border Patrol agent checking the train somewhere.

JHHTrainsPlanes,

I don't recall the article you mention, but there is a place in New Mexico, just west of the Rio Grande [river not RR] crossing, where the UP (SP Sunset) line runs very close to the border. I had heard more about thefts from containers on double stack trains, and not so much about terrorist threats, though I'm sure that's there too.

Also, east of San Diego, the Carrizo Gorge (former San Diego & Arizona Eastern) actually runs through Mexico between Tijuana and Tecate, then crosses into the US and runs near the California/Mexico border for some distance further east. That area is extremely rugged; maybe that was in the article.

MP

[Anonymous]

Protecting our borders could be done by using motion detectors, sound detectors and infrared technology. The drones we hear about being used in Iraq and other places could also be used. We cannot continue business as usual as the times have changed and cowards want to come into this country and harm innocent women and children.

Right now the government is expecting attacks somewhere and soon. We must be on guard. God help us if we are not.

[edblysard]

Jim,
Come look at the Texas/Mexico border...
Unless IBM invents a affordable dector that can tell the difference between a coyote chasing a rabbit or a illegal crossing the border....

And even if you could deploy enough infrared and motion dectors to cover the thousands of miles, (remember, its not a straight line, the border dips onto gorges, up cliffs, to the point its a lot longer than the nautical miles shown on a map) who responds when one is triggered?

Unless you have manned post every thousand feet, by the time some could get to the point of entry, the person would be gone.

You can use radar on the coast line, compared to terrain, the sea is realitively flat, and most boats would show up.

Once found, there isn't too many places to hide on the open ocean, but down along the border, you can walk miles in old creekbeds and never be seen from the air.

You could build a new Berlin wall, but who would man the guard post?

And they would tunnel under it, or find some way to get over.

Come on down and look, trust me, after a few hours wandering around the Mexican border, you will realize there is no way to completly secure or close this border, its too huge, too rugged, with too many places to hide.

Short of a space bound permanent observation platform, with a dedicated, on site enforcement agency, and a little more technology than exsist today, the only way to effectivly patrol and secure the American/Mexico border is with thousands of mounted patrol officers, empowered with extraordinary jurisdiction and enforcement powers.

I have lived places where you needed internal passports and travel papers.
The people there dont feel any more secure or safe, but they did feel oppressed, and did fear the guards more than they feared any invader...

If we let the possibility of another attack radically change the way we live, then the terrorist have already won.

Imagine the economic impact if, every time there was a terror alert, all aircraft were grounded, all trains stopped, every freeway into major cities were closed, all entrance points into the country were sealed, every form of communciation, cell phones, land lines, were either tapped, or shut down?

Think about that, read hard....


You live in Little Rock, right?

What if, every time you want to leave, and say, go to North Little Rock, you have to stop and show a passport to a border guard?

And explain where in NLR your going, who you are going to see, and when you will come back?

Say you go buy a computer hard drive at Bob's geek store?
You have to explain what machine your installing it in, including the serial number, where this machine is, and what it is used for, and sign a disclaimer, complete with your name, SS#, address and passport number?

Sound like fun?

If we aren't careful, it isnt that far away....

I dont like, want or need Big Brother watching anymore than he already is.

Will the terrorist attack again?

Yup.

Will it be a devasting as 9/11?

Dont know.

Can we stop it?

No.

But, instead of tightening domestic, internal security, and punishing the American citizen, in my opinion, we should take the fight to them.

Punish, both with economic and military force, any country that sponsers these idiots.

You cant stop them from getting into this country, but you can sure make it expensive for them, and their sponsers, to do anything here.

But even that wont make to much of a impact on them.

Remember, your not dealing with a purly economic model here, its a ideologic model.

Americans have never embarked on a religious jihad of our own, at least not to the extent these guys have.

Sure, all of our churches have "missions" in other countries, but we dont normally shoot or behead those who dont agree with our viewpoint....

To them, it is a religious duty, as important as Sunday mass, the Jewi***emple, or the regular Sunday services so important to most Americans.

Being killed carrying forward their religious leaders wishes is a guarenteed ticket into heaven.

How do you defend against a people who want to die, attacking you?

Closing shop in America wont stop them, so our choices are run and hide, or take the fight, both with military might and economic force, take it to them.

But shooting a Mexican sneaking into Texas to dig ditches, in order to stop the Taliban wont work.

Sound extreme?

If you think about it, no, its not.

Cant happen here?
Oh, yes it can, and right quick too...

In fact, stuff like that is right on our horzion, closer than we imagine, and if we, the people, are not careful what powers we allow our goverment to have, and what rights we give up, it will happen before we even realize it.

Ed

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Hummm...
Lets start at the border proper.
How many of you have actually crossed the border into Mexico, or back into the US?
Best have at the least two hours of extra time, about four on a heavy weekend.

Trucks?
Professional inspectors are the best defense, they are trained to detect the slight abnormality a smuggler shows.
Any suspicion, the trcks gets inspected, weighed, the weight compared against the manifest, and the dogs turned lose.
And discrepcency in weight, too much or too little according to what it should be, the truck is opened.

Last month, my wife, a Officer of the State of Texas, crossed into Mexico for the weekend.
On the way back, because she drives a Durango, the border patrol pulled her, and a Blazer out of line.
Her state badge meant nothing, even though the same agent had chatted with her on her way into Mexico..
It isn't the legal entry points, no super X ray, infra red device can replace a trained patrol officer.

Its the thousand of miles of unbelieveably rugged, desolate countryside where the illegal aliens enter in force.
The gate runners get caught more often than not.

Trust me, unless your willing to reassign around 1/3 of the standing military services to border patrol, you cant stop them.
And its not just Mexico, our Canadian members can vouch for the miles of border almost impossible to patrol.
Yet the desperate poor will walk across the Texas desert, just to earn less than minimum wage, diging ditches, mowing lawns and cleaning house, because what they have at home is so far below the US poverty level as to be beyond what you could imagine.

Oh, and the idea about air tight railcars?
Early this year, a covered hopper was discovered with several dead illegals inside.
Some as young as 15.
Great idea...kill 'em on the way in, saves on deportation cost and lowers the welfare rolls....

Do got a question for most of us...how many of you, except CW, are "Native Americans"?

So, like me, most of you are the result of immigrants fleeing their country for a better life here!

I am only two generation away from the boat, and I bet a lot of you are too.

And the owner of the 18 wheeler, abandoned outside of Victoria, jammed full of Mexicans locked inside, some of whom died from the heat, was just sentenced to a prision term.

You cant stop them, or the terrorist, at the border, there is just to much real estate to cover.

Any one know how many miles of coastline America has?
Guard all of it?
How?

Ed

I know this is extreme but they should not have left their country in the first place. Canada in particular has a problem and let's any old person in. Where do you think that guy with the car bomb enroute to Seatle came from? Well not everybody is as wicked as those folks but if they have a problem with their country than they should change it. The U.S is a country that was founded because the British Empire was acting like a pile of jerks to the people. Rather than claiming refugee status, the majority of the inhabitants of the thirteen colonies did something about their trouble which ended in a positive long-term existance. It is not as if you can always go around and expect other people to change your own life for you. Sometimes you just have to fix it yourself. Great Britain did it to create parliment, France did it to be a republic, China and Russia did it for communism (their choice), India did it peacefully (Ghandi). Their are many ways that the people can fix their country. Thankfully for us if we hate our politicians we can vote them out of office during the next election.

Also, there are many ways we can use machines that at the boarder. Their is technology that can scan through metal for heat, their are machines that can sniff out drugs( I saw it on the new-a scandinavian country is using this device successfully), you can have a device that can measure the weight of the train (like a hot box detector kind of). Technology is really quite effective which the terrorist have limited knowlege of. The stupid bums had to go to a flying school in Florida I believe was the state, in order to pull of 9-11 so as long as we get smart, they will always fail.

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


Do got a question for most of us...how many of you, except CW, are "Native Americans"?

Ed

I'm a "Native American".

I was born here...

If you're refering to "American Indian", that I ain't.

[Anonymous]

Everyone makes some interesting points here. A couple of things to consider, though-
1) We have the ability and the technology to close our borders. Are we willing to pay the cost? By cost, I mean people- someone other than the sleepy TSA types who wave a wand over you at the airport. Who pays for closing a border? Initially, the taxpayers- us. Then the US government will figure out that businesses- like the railroads, who carry huge amounts of imports- ought to pay some kind of "security" fee.
2) As citizens of the USA we take an awful lot of pride in our freedoms. We resent government intrusion into what we read, write, do and say. Having lived in El Paso, Texas, and Phoenix, Arizona, one got used to being stopped for INS checkpoints at the border, or within 20 miles of it. One might even tolerate an occasional search of the car. I'm not so sure the thousands of tourists who happily race across the border- to Canada, as well as Mexico- are all willing to get interrogated, searched, probed and questioned that intensively.

Most people want to feel safe in their homes and in their workplaces, but at gut level, they don't want a police state, either.

Erik

[ericsp]

Mr. Blysard:

I know that securing the borders will be a very difficult task and right now may be impossible. However, that is no reason to have a defeatist attitude, that has never accomplished anything.

[edblysard]

Eric,
It's Ed, not Mr Blysard, thats my father...

Not a defeatist attitude, but a realistic attitude.

Been down there and along the Mexico/Texas border a few times, trust me, you can't secure it completly.

I would rather see the men and material applied in other areas where the pay off has more concrete results.

And even if you could somehow seal this border, imagine the economic results here in the border states.

Construction business rely on the illegals, as do many othre forms of business.

No, these people don't take jobs from Americans, they perform jobs American refuse to do.

If the terrorist have another attack planed, I would bet on the people who plan on carring it out are already here, and have been for a while.

Short of creating a police state, we are stuck with having to expect the worst.

Thats said, I still think the best defense against terror attacks is to make the pay back so complete and so devestating to the host country that they, the host, decide it isnt worth the risk.

I dont want the fight to be on American soil, I want it to be in their backyard, not mine.

Take the fight to them, take it hard, fast and complete.

My Dad's generation suffered a similar attack, Pearl Harbor.
In four and a half years, the US managed to defeat two major world powers, both with modern, well manned and efficent military machines.
But some how, a group of losely connected, almost un trained civilians have managed to alter our world to the point that Americans are being asked to spy on other Americans and I am going to need "papers" to travel from Texas to New Mexico.

Do what?

I, for one, am tired of being hasseled when my buddies and I throw our rods and reels in the boat, go out in Galveston bay to fish, and get stopped by the Coasties because my buddy has a full beard and is dark haired.

I didn't like the fact that, when my 11 year old daughter went to England this summer, she was pulled out of the checkin line, searched, her luggage gone through, all because she was wearing black sneakers, instead of white ones.

Now, that makes a lot of sense, dosnt it....

Sorta like trying to close several thousand miles of rugged desert range border, looking for one or two "terrorist".

My point is, we are letting them bring the fight to us, here.
We really can't stop them for getting in, but we sure as heck can make it cost them everything back home if they do anything while they are here.

Ed

[Mookie]

You know - I keep thinking that no matter what we do, a determined terrorist will find a way around it. Just like counterfeiters....as you are issuing the new ones, they are already perfecting ways to get around it.

If the USA was the size of New Hampshire - guarding boarders wouldn't be a problem.

That's not defeatist - that's just plain old reality.

We are overwhelming the public with so many restrictions and crying wolf so much, we must be very amusing to the terrorists. They have us in a great position - we are acting like scared rabbits - keeping everyone on edge, protecting our boarders, when in reality a terrorist will do something like make a mess of all our puters!

The airport security is a joke! I won't even comment on how really stupid it is. They are oppressing the general public and don't you think for a minute that the terrorists aren't just loving every minute of some of our silly goose ideas!

You can't put a face on a terrorist! It could be a blond-haired, blue-eyed female - or a person from Nebraska that writes on forums!

And - like Ed said - illegals/legals from other countries, are doing jobs in our packing plants that the people from this country won't do - right here in the middle of the nation!
Doesn't make it right, but it is fact. And that is what we should deal in.......

Mookie

[88gta350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

Protecting our borders could be done by using motion detectors, sound detectors and infrared technology. The drones we hear about being used in Iraq and other places could also be used. We cannot continue business as usual as the times have changed and cowards want to come into this country and harm innocent women and children.

Right now the government is expecting attacks somewhere and soon. We must be on guard. God help us if we are not.

Motion detectors and infrared technology is used on the border, as are UAV's, along with regular old airplanes and helicopters equipped with thermal imaging and night vision devices. The problem, as others have said, is there is just way too much ground to cover. Or they'll just dig a tunnel. It's been done. You can't check every truck or car, you just can't. As Ed said, trained agents decide which ones to check more closely, but when you're dealing with hundreds of thousands a day, they'll slip through. Personally, if I were a terrorist, how many miles of un-monitored coastline do we have? How about just walking through some dense forest in the middle of Canada to the US. Hell, most terrorists could hop on a plane and fly right over, they aren't on any terrorist watch list...