It appears the discussion of the Chicago and Great Western has run it's course. Very insightful and educational discussion it has been.
In the past, the IC's Iowa line running from Chicago to Omaha/Sioux City/Sioux Falls has been discussed. Perhaps we can revisit that subject.
The recent issue of Classic Trains has an article on William Middleton and there is a photo of an IC Meat Train. By chance, I picked up Middleton's "yet, there isnt a train I wouldnt take" yesterday at the library and lo and behold...there is a story on the IC's Meat Train with that photo included. The chapter was originally a story in Oct 1958 Trains Magazine, for those of you with either paper or electronic access.
Middleton rides CC6, the Meat Train, from Omaha to Chicago an overnight 17 hour journey. He gives his usual engineering detail to the story, along with really great photography.
So, we know that the meat moved away...but when? At what point did IC pull the plug on the CC6 and the corresponding meat train from Sioux City/Sioux Falls? Is this meat now moving via highway?
Paul, I know you will jump in here, as this has been a subject of your interest.
The CNW/UP arrangement pretty much shut down the bridge traffic on this line, so there is very little of that moving today. Is CN running one manifest train each way on the line between Chicago and western points? Thus, is it similar in nature to the Iowa Interstate?
What about online grain movements, or is it too close to the Mississippi River? Are there movements to the river for transloading? Has the ethanol business taken most of the Iowa corn production? Coal from PRB? Local business?
While it was not surprizing that IC sold the line back in the 80's, it was a stunner for me when it was repurchased in the 90's. As an IC shareholder, I received a prospectus on the purchase, unfortunately it was tossed years ago. It never quite made sense to me that IC would buy it back, but CN seems content with the line.
Perhaps we can discuss the Iowa lines one by one, primarily the Chicago - Omaha lines to get an overview of the economics and operations of that overbuilt railroad infrastructure.
Thanks,
Ed
IIRC, the Iowa Divison meat traffic was almost gone by the late 60's. It just dribbled on for a number of years and was routed in whatever train was available. Like most of the large integrated packing plants, the shift to prepackaged/boxed meats spelled the doom for movement of entire car loads of 'swinging beef'. Many smaller single level plants serving local/regional markets that were perfect for trucking the product were built. .IBP(now part of Tyson) and Farmland(Smithfield) replace the large Dubuque/Rath/Armour/Swift/Wilson plants. Only Hormel is left as one of the original big packers.
The current CN 'Iowa Division' still has the Omaha and Souix Ctiy lines. The line from Cherokee to Souix Falls is long gone.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
At some point in the late 1950's (I think) the IC had started a piggy back service hauling hanging beef in railroad owned refer trailers from Iowa packers to Chicago. That would have been in the era when meat packers were switching modes from rail service in refer cars to over the road trucks. I don't recall the specific details, but the rate and service was competitive with OTR trucking. I think the revenue on the business was a little under $1 million a year.
Just before I started working for the IC in the Marketing Department in 1969, the market research group had completed a study on the movement. The study found that the full cost of the business, including administrative overheads, allocations for MOW and equipment ownership, substantially exceeded the revenue. The decision was made to discontinue the service. Internally, the decision to stop the service was controversial, as the direct operating cost was less than the revenue and and the VP of Operations was stuck with a order to reduce his budgeted expenditures by an amount at least equal to the revenue, and that required some cuts in areas not related to the specific movement.
As I recall, at the time I was on the IC, the Iowa line had only three through freight trains in and out of Chicago. (An OC of the era would show the schedules). In addition of the problem of the IC (and the other Granger Lines) getting the short end on the division of revenue on interline traffic from and to the west, the grades involved getting across the Mississippi River at Dubuque tightly limited train size. With just the three through trains, helper service there would have been too costly. Adding power to the trains may have helped, but that would have put more power on the trains than would be required for most of the run.
To be clear, I have no idea what the CN is doing with the line now or how the line fits their marketing strategy.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Ethonal and unit grain is becoming the main source of traffic on the IC Iowa line today. There are ethonal and biodiesel plants popping up all along the line: Lena, IL, Farley and Dyersville, IA and I think some more out in western Iowa just to name a few. Unit grain trains orginate in western Iowa, not sure what towns. There is also an occasional coal train that BNSF runs over this line to a barge loading facility (I think) in East Dubuque. I do not know where it enters the CN line at, Souix City or Council Bluffs?
I once lived a few blocks from this line a couple of years ago and there was an average of three to four trains a day on this line. CN upgraded the signal system from Waterloo to Dubuque a few years ago among other track improvement projects so CN must see some value in this line. It would be nice, however, to see some intermodal on this line, not sure if CN has any plans for that. I would think Souix City to Chicago and points east would be a decent intermodal route if there is a market for it.
Jeff
CGW Ethonal and unit grain is becoming the main source of traffic on the IC Iowa line today. There are ethonal and biodiesel plants popping up all along the line: Lena, IL, Farley and Dyersville, IA and I think some more out in western Iowa just to name a few. Unit grain trains orginate in western Iowa, not sure what towns. There is also an occasional coal train that BNSF runs over this line to a barge loading facility (I think) in East Dubuque. I do not know where it enters the CN line at, Souix City or Council Bluffs? I once lived a few blocks from this line a couple of years ago and there was an average of three to four trains a day on this line. CN upgraded the signal system from Waterloo to Dubuque a few years ago among other track improvement projects so CN must see some value in this line. It would be nice, however, to see some intermodal on this line, not sure if CN has any plans for that. I would think Souix City to Chicago and points east would be a decent intermodal route if there is a market for it. Jeff
Jeff,
Your post reminded me that the IC (ICG) had a huge grain movement off the Iowa line to the Gulf in the summer of the year (1980 or '81?) that the Mississippi River water levels dropped to record lows. Due to restrictions on the river channels, river tows had to move very slowly and the unregulated grain rates for barges went through the roof.
It does make sense to me that with fast, high volume grain loading operations well located on the Iowa Line, and the output of ethanol plants, CN could have a good business going, perhaps even getting export grain bound for the Gulf.
jrbernier IIRC, the Iowa Divison meat traffic was almost gone by the late 60's. It just dribbled on for a number of years and was routed in whatever train was available. Like most of the large integrated packing plants, the shift to prepackaged/boxed meats spelled the doom for movement of entire car loads of 'swinging beef'. Many smaller single level plants serving local/regional markets that were perfect for trucking the product were built. .IBP(now part of Tyson) and Farmland(Smithfield) replace the large Dubuque/Rath/Armour/Swift/Wilson plants. Only Hormel is left as one of the original big packers. The current CN 'Iowa Division' still has the Omaha and Souix Ctiy lines. The line from Cherokee to Souix Falls is long gone. Jim
Jim, the Morrell plant in Sioux Falls is also still very much in operation and has been expanded over the years. They still do a small amount of business with the BNSF shipping meat products out in mechanical refrigerator cars. Morrell is now a part of Smithfield Foods. I have some additional information on meat shipments out of Sioux Falls and surrounding area that I will post in the near future. Matt
Greyhounds can answer a lot of these questions better than I can; even for someone who grew up close to the IC/ICG Iowa Division (my hometown is 15 miles from Manchester). But the gradual loss of the meat business to the trucks was a result of a combination of factors. When ICG did make some inroads via the intermodal route in the late 70's with PBX Express, it was effectively shut down by an I.C.C. mandate which said a contract carrier was ineligible to use a contract carrier.
The CN, IMHO, has done a pretty good job of getting the former Iowa Division into good shape again after IC Industries bleeding of the railroad pretty much forced ICG's hand in letting the Iowa Division go to the dogs in the period between 1981-85. That said, there are some things they could be doing better; particularly on the intermodal front where there is a great opportunity available for meat and meat products out of western Iowa and Waterloo (again, I'll leave this to Greyhounds as he's the expert on this one). Also a disappointment: the CN not pushing the Council Bluffs/Omaha gateway for their auto and auto parts traffic that they generate. Granted, I know they could never equal UP for transit time even if the segment between Tara and Council Bluffs was significantly upgraded - but still......Another sore spot with me - WHY doesn't CN and UP have a paired track arrangement between Denison and Council Bluffs??? This is something that should have been worked out DECADES ago between IC/ICG and CNW.
FWIW, I thought I had heard some rumblings that CN actually was in the process of doing some minor upgrading in and around Logan, IA (just north of Missouri Valley IIRC). Thought I had heard that UP might be thinking in terms of running some trains on there later on this spring or summer. Perhaps Jeff Hergert may have some more info on this....
Had a buyer not been found for the IC Iowa line in the 1980's, could it have faced abandonment? Does the CN do much business on the branch into Southern MN?
The reoccuring theme...."we are waiting for Greyhound."
He will no doubt have info, particularly on the meat movements.
Sure wish I had my prospectus from IC back in late 90s when they bought the line back. On my Dubuque travels, it never fails that I see a train somewhere west of Freeport. There seems to be local based on Dubuque. One of my "to do items" is to watch a CN come thru the tunnel at E. Dubuque.
Does anyone know the frequency of ethanol movements on the line? An extra train a day? or one per week? It seems odd that CN would hold on to the line, it just doesnt go anywhere for them, but if it makes $$$ so be it.
jeaton CGW: Ethonal and unit grain is becoming the main source of traffic on the IC Iowa line today. There are ethonal and biodiesel plants popping up all along the line: Lena, IL, Farley and Dyersville, IA and I think some more out in western Iowa just to name a few. Unit grain trains orginate in western Iowa, not sure what towns. There is also an occasional coal train that BNSF runs over this line to a barge loading facility (I think) in East Dubuque. I do not know where it enters the CN line at, Souix City or Council Bluffs? I once lived a few blocks from this line a couple of years ago and there was an average of three to four trains a day on this line. CN upgraded the signal system from Waterloo to Dubuque a few years ago among other track improvement projects so CN must see some value in this line. It would be nice, however, to see some intermodal on this line, not sure if CN has any plans for that. I would think Souix City to Chicago and points east would be a decent intermodal route if there is a market for it. Jeff Jeff, Your post reminded me that the IC (ICG) had a huge grain movement off the Iowa line to the Gulf in the summer of the year (1980 or '81?) that the Mississippi River water levels dropped to record lows. Due to restrictions on the river channels, river tows had to move very slowly and the unregulated grain rates for barges went through the roof. It does make sense to me that with fast, high volume grain loading operations well located on the Iowa Line, and the output of ethanol plants, CN could have a good business going, perhaps even getting export grain bound for the Gulf.
CGW: Ethonal and unit grain is becoming the main source of traffic on the IC Iowa line today. There are ethonal and biodiesel plants popping up all along the line: Lena, IL, Farley and Dyersville, IA and I think some more out in western Iowa just to name a few. Unit grain trains orginate in western Iowa, not sure what towns. There is also an occasional coal train that BNSF runs over this line to a barge loading facility (I think) in East Dubuque. I do not know where it enters the CN line at, Souix City or Council Bluffs? I once lived a few blocks from this line a couple of years ago and there was an average of three to four trains a day on this line. CN upgraded the signal system from Waterloo to Dubuque a few years ago among other track improvement projects so CN must see some value in this line. It would be nice, however, to see some intermodal on this line, not sure if CN has any plans for that. I would think Souix City to Chicago and points east would be a decent intermodal route if there is a market for it. Jeff
Was the so-called "Gruber Line" (the long abandoned line that ran south out of Freeport, IL) still in place in the early 80's when this grain movement took place? Not to open up a new can of worms, but I wonder if CN wishes that line was still in place to route Iowa Line grain traffic to the gulf bypassing Chicago and BNSF trackage?
Here is my guess Jeff, and only a guess.
There is so much horse trading going on these days with haulage rights, trackage rights, etc. Ok, so IC, oops CN has to pay BNSF to run from East Dubuque to Peoria, but didnt CN grant BNSF some sort of rights in and around Centralia, Il southward? What about the sale of East Dubuque to Portage, Il a few years ago. No doubt there was some bartering involved with that.
And what about the Joliet to Corwith exchange a few years ago?
The Freeport to Decatur line would have really had to have been refurbished to handle 12000 ton grain trains on a regular basis...not much left at the end.
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Very doubtful. By the time the Gruber Line was abandoned, (in the 1970's I believe) it was already very low grade, perhaps unsignaled, and I don't think there was even enough traffic to cover a tri-weekly local. There might have been a very modest movement of inbound ag products and some grain during the harvest, but the proximity to the Illinois River would have most grain being trucked to the river for barge movement beyond. Few if any larger towns on the route were left without rail service and where merited, I suspect segments of the line were left in place to provide switch service to any existing customers in those towns. With the condition of track and lack of a pool of train crews the line would have been useless as a by pass route for through trains.
I am not clear where you are seeing BNSF trackage. The Iowa Line comes into a connection with the mainline at Chicago over the CN-IC owned St Charles Air Line. Originally the SCAL turned north and the trains originated and terminated in Congress Street Yard. Sometime in the 1960's the IC built the southwest leg of the wye at the junction and merchandise trains off the Iowa Line ran down to Markham Yard. (At the same time, the LCL service handled at the South Water Street was discontinued and the freight house was demolished to make way for the development of the air rights).
The SCAL was never significantly constrained by the Chicago railroad congestion problems and in fact with the CN's purchase of the EJ&E, they have in mind to abandon the SCAL and the lake front freight line from a point east of the Chicago down to somewhere south around 75th St.
I don't think that the IC ever had anything near a capacity problem on the Chicago-New Orleans main line and I really doubt that the CN currently has any problem with the line. Absent that, it is hard to consider the abandonment of the Gruber Line as any kind of lost oppurtunity.
Ed posted his last comment while I was writing the above, so now I understand your reference to CN trackage rights on the BNSF. Obviously, the East Dubuque-Peoria link significantly shortens the route between CN in Iowa and CN-Peoria and points south as opposed to moving the traffic over Chicago. While the Freeport-Decatur line no longer exists and the issue is moot, I still don't see it as a lost oppurtunity for improved operating efficiency.
I have some employee time tables for the IC's Iowa lines. The oldest I currently have (once had a couple from the mid 1930s) is from 1970, then a couple from the 1980s. In 1970 there were still 3 trains carded each way to/from Council Bluffs. By 1981 the next year I have, one schedule each way is gone leaving two each way. This seems to have lasted until the IC sold the line. CC&P in the Haley era anyway, had 2 each way. I seem to remember that one was supposed to be a TOFC/COFC.
Today, the CN doesn't run a through train as such into/out of Council Bluffs. They run a local turn that runs between CB and Fort Dodge 6 days a week. On one night it makes a Denison turn. I want to say the home is CB, but don't remember for sure. The job works at night, unusual to see daylight action on the CB line.
The Tyson (former IBP) plant at Denison still uses rail for shipping out the by-products. Going past there today there were all kinds of covered hoppers and a few tanks sitting at the plant.
The UP is going to detour some trains over the CN between Arion and Council Bluffs sometime this year. The reason being the second track being added on the UP's Blair subdivision. I've been over this segment a few times in the past. It's in pretty good shape, but only one active customer between Denison and Council Bluffs.
Meat plants didn't get smaller. They became much larger.
These are 2007 numbers but they'll do. The US produced 24,073,450 tons of USDA inspected red meat. About 2% of this red meat was veal and lamb. 98% was beef and pork. At 42,000 pounds per truckload this equated to 1,146,355 truckloads of red meat per year.
The production is very concentrated. While there were 626 plants slaughtering cattle, 14 of those 626 plants produced 54% of the beef. There were 618 plants slaughtering hogs, 13 of those produced 58% of the pork. This concentration of production helps make rred meat a prime marketing opportunity for rail intermodal.
So why did the red meat leave the railroads (including the IC's Iowa Division). Well, there are the usual villains. The government regulators who hobbled the railroads while basically giving truckers free reigns. The unscrupulos rail unions that insisted on excess upon excess while manning trains. Too many people on a train and change 'em out too many times. The unions required a minimun of 16 man days to move a train from the Missouri River to Chicago. There's work for four. The crew district between Ft. Dodge and Waterloo, Iowa was 100 miles. That was a day's pay for maybe three hour's work. And for too many crew members.
An additional union excess was the "Tabulated Local". The railroad couldn't change its operations to fit the market demand. The unions required the operation of locals. If we didn't operate the local we had to pay the crew anyway. So trains that were needed on the main line couldn't be run because we had to run obsolete locals. You can't spend the money twice.
I'll add in the hillbilly management of the railroad. Jay has mentioned this. When the costing people presented the concept that the meat traffic did not cover its fully allocated cost the decision was made to exit the meat business. This was beyond dumb. Anyone with an ounce of business sense, or some semblance of business education, wouldn't have made this decision. Fully allocated costs don't matter in this decision, marginal cost are what counts. And the meat business was covering its marginal costs. Some folks in the ICG operating department may have walked by a graduate business school. I'm convinced that none of them ever went inside.
When the ICG terminaled its leased fleet of refrigerated TOFC trailers I was just starting to work there. I didn't have much influence. (any influence!?)
Some years latter I would sit across a desk or table and make those costing folks sweat over every number they produced. I saw incredibly stupid numbers such as "Fixed cost per gross ton mile". I'd call 'em on it and listen to them stammer. I did intermodal pricing and I'd just flat out ignore the numbers the costing people produced. Their numbers were garbage.
Pork production, and some beef production, and some beef production, concentrate in or around Iowa. The CN could get a good portion of that traffic. They just gotta' wanna'.
Some meat continued t move on the ICG Iowa Division after the railroad terminated its ownership of refrigerated equipment. UPS used its Martrac reefer trailers to haul parcels west to Sioux Falls (over the Sioux City ramp) Then came back east with meat. This went on into the 1980's until the opeating department ran that traffic off.
Don't quote me on this but I believe the reason that IC purchased the Iowa line again was for increasing it's line haul of specific Commodities (my thinking was grain but not sure) to Gulf Coast ports.
I am wondering, if the thinking was (for purchase of the line) was two fold. The Iowa line was a money maker and IC was making money hand over fist. Thus, they had a problem of what to do with excess cash they were generating.
Thus, with a level of familiarity with the line and the need to do something with cash flows, this made sense.
Was this after the merger with KCS fell apart? I think so. IC may have become so small, lean, and trim that they were an obvious company to be purchase...which turned out to be turn a couple of years later.
Also recall that at the time CN was running their western Canada trains down the BNSF to Chicago. This might have been a first step in creating at least a partially new option for gaining access to Chicago. Perhaps the talks were already in an early stage between CN and IC.
Dont know, thinking on my keypad.
greyhounds Some meat continued t move on the ICG Iowa Division after the railroad terminated its ownership of refrigerated equipment. UPS used its Martrac reefer trailers to haul parcels west to Sioux Falls (over the Sioux City ramp) Then came back east with meat. This went on into the 1980's until the opeating department ran that traffic off. Greyhounds, could you expand on this post? I am interested in what a Martrac trailer is, who loaded the meat and when this service started. Did the railroad unload the trailers in Sioux City and then have them trucked to Sioux Falls? When did this service end? Any additional information you can provide on this service would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Matt
Greyhounds, could you expand on this post? I am interested in what a Martrac trailer is, who loaded the meat and when this service started. Did the railroad unload the trailers in Sioux City and then have them trucked to Sioux Falls? When did this service end? Any additional information you can provide on this service would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Matt
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