Gondola vs. open hopper: what's the difference

[FJ and G]

I've seen gondolas that look as tall as open hopper cars carrying coal (like the ones the santa fe used for coal from mines of York N.M to Fontana, Calif. So, what is the difference?

Dave Vergun

[edblysard]

Hoppers have a mechanical way to dump them, or open the bottom, in most cases.
Gondolas do not.
Most high gons, coal and coke gons, and high sided wood chip gons, are designed to be unloaded with a rotary dumper, they just tune them over and empty them out.
The short sided gons, like the ones used for steel, pipe and such, have to be unloaded by hand or machine.

Easy way to determine if a gon is a rotary dump gon, the end with the rotary coupler is highlighted, painted a different color than the rest of the car, often, white, yellow or red to stand out and make it easy to see if all the cars are lined up with the rotary couplers are all on the same ends.

Ed

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Hoppers have a mechanical way to dump them, or open the bottom, in most cases.
Gondolas do not.
Most high gons, coal and coke gons, and high sided wood chip gons, are designed to be unloaded with a rotary dumper, they just tune them over and empty them out.
The short sided gons, like the ones used for steel, pipe and such, have to be unloaded by hand or machine.

Easy way to determine if a gon is a rotary dump gon, the end with the rotary coupler is highlighted, painted a different color than the rest of the car, often, white, yellow or red to stand out and make it easy to see if all the cars are lined up with the rotary couplers are all on the same ends.

Ed

Ed - thanks for the explanantion [:)] but I just have little Q - would you know where the name 'gondola' came from? At the risk of sounding silly, it's not derived from the long, low sided open boats that travel the canals of Venice is it???....[?]

Dave

[edblysard]

I am sure they have the same root word orgin, but darned if I know.
Someone here with a little more ancient language skills will know...

Ed

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Hoppers have a mechanical way to dump them, or open the bottom, in most cases.
Gondolas do not.
Most high gons, coal and coke gons, and high sided wood chip gons, are designed to be unloaded with a rotary dumper, they just tune them over and empty them out.
The short sided gons, like the ones used for steel, pipe and such, have to be unloaded by hand or machine.

Easy way to determine if a gon is a rotary dump gon, the end with the rotary coupler is highlighted, painted a different color than the rest of the car, often, white, yellow or red to stand out and make it easy to see if all the cars are lined up with the rotary couplers are all on the same ends.

Ed

Also hoppers have sloped bottoms so that loads slide to the discharge openings. Gondolas have flat floors.

There are "drop bottom" gondolas which have opening floors . Usually the floor has opening sections on each side of and hinged along the center sill. When latches along the sides of the car are released the sections drop each forming a chute which discharges the cargo outside the rails.

There are also gondolas with a small door on one end (I beleave they are usually used for wood chips). They are emptied by a car dumper that lifts the end of the car oposite the door .

[CShaveRR]

I'm sure the gondolas in Venice (long vehicles with low sides) gave the name to the freight cars, knowing how railroaders can make nicknames stick.

The distinction between gondolas and hoppers wasn't always as well defined as it is now. Most of the gondolas with bottom openings (some were just trap-doors, others were actually hoppers at the bottom of the car, as well as the cars described above that dumped to the outside of the rails) are gone from revenue service. Hoppers were just as complicated--and some were not self-clearing (built with the slope sheets), so it would be hard to mechanically distinguish a non-self-clearing hoper from a hopper-bottom gondola. In fact, C&O, at least in the vernacular, called everything a gondola--either flat-bottom or hopper-bottom.

Nowadays, it's easy...hoppers can be unloaded through the bottom of the car, gondolas can't (there may be a very few old "GS" drop-bottom gons in revenue service, but they won't be around much longer). Don't be confused by the cars that have sloping floors going down to a solid center--those are gons like any others, just with a lower center of gravity. Also, though Ed is right about the rotary-coupler ends on coal gons, keep in mind that hoppers can have rotary couplers, too...that just increases their flexibility.

[FJ and G]

Ed,

Thanks much for the explanation. The reason I asked is because my all-time favorite train picture is of five SD24s hauling an 84 car of 100-ton rotary dump hopper cars around the double horseshoe at Ribera, N.M. in Sept 67 en route to the Kaiser Steel in Fontana Calif. You will notice from the caption that I just cited that they call them "rotary dump hopper cars," whereas you stated that if they are rotary, they are gondolas.

The cars, btw, are, in fact, blue and yellow Santa Fe colors, the yellow end denoting the rotary end, as you mention.

Your statement and the caption (featured in 2nd Qtr 2004 "The Warbonnet" magazine) are at odds.

Dave Vergun

[Anonymous]

Here's the M-W definition -- looks like they were named after the boats, as stated above.

Main Entry: gon·do·la
Pronunciation: 'gän-d&-l& (usual for sense 1), gän-'dO-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian dialect (Venetian), probably from Middle Greek kontoura small vessel
1 : a long narrow flat-bottomed boat with a high prow and stern used on the canals of Venice
2 : a heavy flat-bottomed boat used on New England rivers and on the Ohio and Mississippi rivers
3 : a railroad car with no top, a flat bottom, and fixed sides that is used chiefly for hauling heavy bulk commodities
4 a : an elongated car attached to the underside of an airship b : an often spherical airtight enclosure suspended from a balloon for carrying passengers or instruments c : an enclosed car suspended from a cable and used for transporting passengers; especially : one used as a ski lift

[edblysard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Hoppers have a mechanical way to dump them, or open the bottom, in most cases.
Gondolas do not.
Most high gons, coal and coke gons, and high sided wood chip gons, are designed to be unloaded with a rotary dumper,
Ed

Note I said most, not all.
There are some old GS gons still around, like Carl pointed out, but you see them in captured service most of the time.
Count on this, no matter how odd the design of a rail car is, if someone though it up, some railroad, somewhere, built at least one of them...remember the spike puller photo contest, where it took almost two weeks before anyone(Larry) fighured out what the homemade piece of MOW equipment was.

I was speaking about todays equipment, although you can still find some drop end gons, and drop end mill gons in service.
Have never seen a string of gons, hoppers, or any other series of cars in Santa Fe war bonnet paint or colors, that would be a really cool sight.
Do still see a string of their diesel fuel tanks every once in a while, with the ATSF gothic lettering.

Ed

[CShaveRR]

Dave,

A lot of folks need to take the Freightcarology course...North Western Lines published a photo of a new CMO "coal hopper" in its most recent issue. The UP has some new hoppers (with rotary couplers on one end) lettered CMO, but this particular car was one of the new CMO gons.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

While most cars in unit coal train service are high side gondolas with rotary couplers, there are some sets of hoppers with remote control bottom dumping mechanisms.

[tree68]

Sheesh - I'm beginning to think the answer to the question is "Yes."

[Anonymous]

Beeelllly interesstink...

LC

[Anonymous]

H i Macguy; The boats were called gundalows, here in Cow Hampshire. There is a new one built over on Great Bay, single mast, angled triangular sail that can be visited. Suprised guilfordrr didn't pick up on this (his area?)
Bill Merrow

[adrianspeeder]

All i knew when i was little was that a gondola could hold my hotwheels and the hoppers couldnt.

Adrianspeeder

[Anonymous]

Coal cars

Hoppers 3 or 4 pocket.These can be dumped manual or some are rotary dump.
Rapid Discharge are 4or 5 pocket .The door are operated by air to dunp the coal.

Gonds ( These are all rotary dump
You can have Flat bottom
Bath tub or twin tubs.
Many types of coal cars.

[fuzzybroken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

Dave,

A lot of folks need to take the Freightcarology course...North Western Lines published a photo of a new CMO "coal hopper" in its most recent issue. The UP has some new hoppers (with rotary couplers on one end) lettered CMO, but this particular car was one of the new CMO gons.

UP really has these? What's the story behind the CMO reporting marks?

-Mark
http://www.geocities.com/fuzzybroken

[fuzzybroken]

That's understandable, I just think that it's unusual to use the CMO reporting marks. Same would be true of CGW, MSTL, L&M, or even T&NO. Seems like it goes just across the border into obscurity, but hey, it's UP's railroad now. I was just wondering if there was any operational significance to using CMO instead of any of the more-common reporting marks.

-Mark
http://www.geocities.com/fuzzybroken