Chicago and Eastern Illinois

[greyhounds]

MP173

Greyhound:

So, was there little interchange with the MoPac in St. Louis prior to their merger with C&EI?  By 1976 the traffic patterns had probably shifted for quite sometime (remember that MoPac owned a good chunk of C&EI stock in the 60's).

ed

I don't know about the 60's Ed, I was in high school trying to figure out what I could do to impress Darla.  Nothing worked.  And I did some really stupid things trying.

I doubt that the IC was ever a major connection at St. Louis for the MoP.  All the IC had to offer the MoP was Chicago and any shipper who routed a carload shipment through Chicago AND St. Louis was looking for some kind of "aging in transit" on his commodity.

St. Louis made Chicago look good with respect to speed and reliability through the gateway.  "TRRA" was literally a four letter word to shippers.  It didn't help much to stay on the east side of the river.  Our major connection at St. Louis was the SSW and that only worked beause we set up a Markham-Pine Bluff run through. (The SP kept stealing our locomotives.  We'd give 'em 3 SD-40s southbound.  They'd give us a train without power northbound and use our locomotives in Texas.)  If a shipper could bypass St. Louis, they generally would.

The C&EI had a line that got the MoP traffic into Chicago while bypassing the St. Louis mess.  The MoP would have had to give up some $$ on the division, but they saved a lot of expense by not going through St. Louis.  Just about any origin/distination other than Chicago pretty much had a direct connection out of St. Louis that didn't involve the IC.

There were a lot of choices north from St. Louis if a shipper didn't want the C&EI to Chicago for some reason.  CB&Q, C&NW, GM&O,  Wabash.  For some shippers it probably depended on whoes salesman took 'em out to lunch last. 

Maybe Jay can provide good informaiton here if he's so inclined.

And, the IC(G) and MoP pretty much hated each other.  The compititon was significant.  We signed a contract with Amstar Sugar to move their product north from New Orleans.  New Orelans was imbalanced inbound so we always were looking for loads out of there.  Amstar was one of the real opportunities for northbound TOFC loads.  The day after Amstar signed our contract the MoP came in with a better offer.  Amstar told 'em they'd have to come back next year and try again. Things like that went on all the time for both intermodal and carload business.

 

 

[JoppaSub]

 Hello:

 I found this thread while researching the C&EI/MoPac line from Cypress to Thebes, IL...I have a couple of questions about it if someone is would be so kind:

1.  Does anyone have any idea as to what kind of traffic would have been traversing this line around 1978?  MoPac had pretty much downgraded it by that time...and I'm guessing local traffic only...or just a few cars here and there from the BN at Chaffee, MO?

2.  I seem to remember the line being deactivated in 1983 or so...I'm doing a little research in preparation for a model of that part of the MoPac/ex-C&EI to come after retirement.

 

Thanks.

[samfp1943]

gabe

Murphy Siding

gabe

I am surprised you can speak so affectionately about a merger that proved to be the harbinger of bereavement for that wonderfully bucolic line through Dundas. 

Gabe

   Off-topic, I know, but that sentence is downright poetic.  If Simon & Garfunkle stage a comeback, you may have some new material started for them.

Quick list of my song titles for them:

(1) Here's to you Hunter Harrison (formerly "Mrs. Robinson");

(2) I am the Rock, the Rock Island (formerly "I am a Rock");

(3) Homewood Bound (formerly "Homeward Bound");

(4) Katy's Song (formerly "Kathy's Song"); and,

(5) The Boxcar (formerly "The Boxer").

Not sure they would get together for such a song list though . . .

Gabe

Gabe

  Gabe:

It is a Shame he's deceased, BUT Boxcar Willie would have been a great one to sing them!

IMHO

[KOWENG110]

I believe the C&EI was part of the Frisco family for a while many decades ago.

Soon after WWII, there was a proposal to merge the MKT, CGW, and C&EI, but nothing came of it.  Does anyone here know any more about the proposal?

Bear

 

[BLS53]

Cairo was a much larger town in those days. Traditionally a railroad town, but not much of one anymore. I recall in the early 60's, there was usually a MoPac Geep and caboose working the small industries around downtown Cairo. The IC and GM&O operated thru trains, and the tracks were on the approach to the Ohio River Bridge. To get to downtown Cairo, there was a long lead off the IC main near the passenger station several miles north.

I never was aware of the IC or GM&O running any locals or such into Cairo off the mainline. The MoPac seemed to have most of the local switching duties. Whether they went up to Thebes, I don't know. If it was like most of the many branches in this area, there were small agricultural and lumber business' along the route, that required weekly (maybe even less) service.

The IC had numerous branches like this in this area. Reevesville-Rosiclare IL, off the Edgewood Cutoff. Metropolis to Brookport IL where there was a former ferry across the Ohio to Paducah. Same with the C&EI to Joppa. These lines physically existed until the early 80's, but one would be hard pressed to have spotted a train on them in the preceding 25 years. Probably the most noticable was the NYC line into Cairo from Danville IL. I don't think there was a train on it south of Harrisburg IL since about 1965. In the 70's,when AEPX and the TVA  wanted barge tranfers on the Ohio and Tennessee Rivers for PRB coal, the C&EI Joppa line, the NYC, and CB&Q lines, were all in disrepair. The BN had the PRB coal and the CB&Q, so that line got the upgrade. MoPac owned the C&EI and the UP wasn't yet in the picture. 

Cairo got a grain/barge facility northeast of town in the late 80's. The NS briefly considered buying the NYC line from Conrail to service it, but eventually deemed it not doable. IC built a connector off their main onto a portion of the old NYC into the barge facility. NS might run some trains there now, but I think it's mostly CN. 

The C&EI and NYC are now biking trails through the Cache Wetlands area, and the CB&Q is busy with BNSF and UP coal..

[railray47]

Sticking to the C&EI subject, I can provide some current and also past info about the line through southern Illinois.

Current: Within the last couple of years the Mt. Vernon-Chester line has been rehabilitated and is being used along with the Benton-Gorham line to move Texas-Chicago freight .

Past: Having spent much of my youth in West Frankfort, IL I witnessed tremendous amounts of coal being pulled out of a couple of remaining mines by the C&EI and several other roads. The largest shaft mine (New Orient) in the world was adjacent to the C&EI yard in West Frankfort. More coal was also coming out of the Johnston City area.  This traffic barely lasted through the 1960's.  

[MP173]

Railray:

Thanks for the update and welcome to the forum.

So, is UP using the MtVernon - Chester and the Gorham - Benton lines for directional running ( like one way streets)?

Prior to the upgrading, what was the status and usage of the Mt. Vernon - Chester line?  Was it a secondary line, or used for locals, possibly coal?

About how many trains does UP run on the ex C&EI south of Salem these days?

BTW, I grew up in Southern Illinois, not quite as far south as you and we would play the Class AA Basketball regionals in West Frankfort.  Coach Rich Herrin at Benton had some pretty good teams, his brother Ron was my h/s coach at Olney.

ed

[railray47]

Hello ed and thanks for the welcome.

As for the condition of the Mt. Vernon-Chester line in pre-rehab days, it was in fairly good shape on the Mt. Vernon end as long as the Rend Lake area coal mines were operating. On further West the line was pretty well neglected and in pre-Staggers Act condition (old passing tracks & sidings still in place.) The traffic would have been all coal.

I cannot estimate the volume of freight traffic since I now live East of these lines. I do occasionally get over that way, and recently was stopped at a crossing in Mt. Vernon by a Northbound train off the Chester line. I've been in Benton earlier this summer and also heard the sound of a Northbound UP.

You may interested to know that the UP has also rehabed the old C&EI line from Benton South througn West Frankfort, Johnson City & Marion down to the junction with BNSF (old CB&Q) near Lake of Egypt (follow IL highway 37 on a map.) This line now hosts heavy Western coal traffic.  -Railray

[Bob-Fryml]

railray47

Hello ed and thanks for the welcome.

As for the condition of the Mt. Vernon-Chester line in pre-rehab days, it was in fairly good shape on the Mt. Vernon end as long as the Rend Lake area coal mines were operating. On further West the line was pretty well neglected and in pre-Staggers Act condition (old passing tracks & sidings still in place.) The traffic would have been all coal.

In late 1973 or during 1974, the western portion of MoPac's Pinckneyville Subdivision (linking Mt. Vernon and Chester, Ill.) underwent a very significant installation of heavy welded rail, extensive crosstie work, and the company spread a lot of ballast.  Although it was dark railroad, i.e., no block signals, as many as six trains would be running on that branchline - most of them hauling coal.  Union Electric at West Labadie, Mo. (located about 43-miles west of Saint Louis) bought a lot of coal from the network of mines served by that section of railroad.

During that same period, C.& E.I. enjoyed a respectable amount of northbound coal traffic that originated from mines south of Mount Vernon.

As for Chicago/Texas trains using the Pinckneyville Subdivision, I'm not so sure.  How this line ties into the C.& E.I. at Mt. Vernon favors the move, but I don't think it does at Chester.  Has Union Pacific built a connection at Chester that would allow northbound Chester Subdivision trains to smoothly transition northbound onto the Pinckneyville Sub.?

Recently I've read where The Cotton Belt did at one time consider buying the C.& E.I., but parent Espee's Vice President of Traffic strongly objected.  The VP's campaign against the idea was centered on the notion that Cotton Belt's eastern connections would be offended at what he thought would be an attempt to short haul them.  After all any traffic moving NYC, PRR, or B&O via East Saint Louis meant a longer haul (and more money) for those carriers than a Chicago area connection would.

As a holdover from the Jay & George Gould days and the control their Allegheny Corporation had over the fortunes of Missouri Pacific, the condition of MoPac's balance sheet in the mid-1960s didn't allow the Company to secure outside financing to acquire the C.& E.I.  However, then Vice President of Purchasing & Materials Harold Hofmeister came up with a novel idea:  sell the MoPac headquarters building for cash, and lease it back for 99-years, and that's just what President Jenks did.  The MoPac was able to get $10-million for the structure, and it used that money to gain control of the C.& E.I. in May 1967.

Once Mr. Jenks assumed contol, that sleepy, weed-infested, 90-lb. jointed rail, no-block signals "branchline" between Pana Jct. and Gorham, Ill. was first replaced with a heavier ballast section, new ties, and 136-lb. welded track.  As those track structure upgrades were being added, C.T.C. went in next, and within a few short years the line blossomed into a serious traffic lane linking the greater midwest with the "ArkLaTex Empire" to the southwest.    

                          THE PANA SUBDIVISION

Because of grossly inferior track conditions between Pana Jct. and East Saint Louis, at one point MoPac approached Penn Central about MoPac's rehabilitating the line in exchange for MoPac's control of the train dispatching operation.  I'm not sure what happened there - did Penn Central agree to this, or was that an issue that was ultimately settled with Conrail?  But, whatever, MoPac did eventually get control of the line, lock, stock and barrel.  So what was once the high-speed New York Central mainline that almost collapsed under a tsunami of 10-mph slow orders, came back to life as a 60-mph freight main today.

[nordique72]

 

"Because of grossly inferior track conditions between Pana Jct. and East Saint Louis, at one point MoPac approached Penn Central about MoPac's rehabilitating the line in exchange for MoPac's control of the train dispatching operation. I'm not sure what happened there - did Penn Central agree to this, or was that an issue that was ultimately settled with Conrail? But, whatever, MoPac did eventually get control of the line, lock, stock and barrel. So what was once the high-speed New York Central mainline that almost collapsed under a tsunami of 10-mph slow orders, came back to life as a 60-mph freight main today."

 Bob,

 It wasn't until 1979 that Conrail transferred ownership of the ex-NYC from Pana to East St. Louis to the MoPac. (Which coincided with Conrail's abandonment of the line from Pana to Paris) During the next three years the MoPac heavily rebuilt the line with new ties and welded rail. I can remember when I was a kid, while my dad and I were out railfanning the Pana Sub one morning he pointed out to me the rail dated 1982- to me it was always a strange thing to see blue MoPac units and yellow UP units flying along on the outskirts of Edwardsville pass over the old highway 143 overpass marked "NEW YORK CENTRAL"...

[Wdlgln005]

 The merger of L&N/C&EI may have hurt the Monon more than the IC/GM&O. The Monon offered another Chicago- Louisville & the south route. Slow & poor track may have doomed the Monon. 

[JoppaSub]

 Hello:

 I was wondering about the interchange as well with ICG at Benton...I have numerous slides and some video showing MP trains going to Joppa with ICG coal hoppers.  Was this coal interchanged with the ICG at Benton?

 Would MP/C&EI cars have been car-hauled by the ICG over their lines as well and interchanged at Benton?  I am modeling Benton Jct. as well on my HO scale layout and would love to get information on this traffic as well.

I grew up in West Frankfort as well and remember numerous trains in the boom of the late 1970's coming out of WF yards...Freeman No. 4 at JC, as well as Buckhorn/Zeigler 4 at Pittsburg may have been some of that production, eh?

The CO&E also was loading coal and interchanging it to MP at Marion...I wish I had more money back then...to buy a good camera and slide film...Lord knows I could have biked to the areas of importance!!

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

 

 

 

[MP173]

Joppa:

I think we all wish we would have had more $$$ back then.  I was fortunate to have made it to Centralia and Mt. Vernon a couple of times in 1975/76.  The coal traffic I saw was on the BN. 

Actually Centralia was really a great spot...IC, BN, and Southern, plus the MoPac.  Hard to beat.

Loved those hi nosed Southern units.  Class.

ed

[JoppaSub]

MP173

Joppa:

I think we all wish we would have had more $$$ back then.  I was fortunate to have made it to Centralia and Mt. Vernon a couple of times in 1975/76.  The coal traffic I saw was on the BN. 

Actually Centralia was really a great spot...IC, BN, and Southern, plus the MoPac.  Hard to beat.

Loved those hi nosed Southern units.  Class.

ed

 

 

Yep...Centralia used to be "the place" around here...even in the late 1990's...when I got married and moved here.  Now...it's still a good place to catch daily action...as BNSF still runs western coal here down to Neilson, Metropolis, and I believe over the Ohio River into Chiles, KY.

IC is all but gone...disappearing into the CN look...occasionally, a lone black GP40 will appear...as will a GP38-2 sometimes...but not as often as recent past...and the Southern is still the Southern...they run alot of intermodal traffic through Centralia...autoracks, TOFC, COFC, and some general merchandise.

West Frankfort once had a decent yard there...and usually had between 4-6 GP's sitting there...a few cabooses...and LOTS of coal hoppers.  Now, it's down to three tracks...a few bad-order cars...and that's it.  Coal still goes through there to Joppa...but it's all western coal AFAIK.

Tom

[richhotrain]

I always dislike reviving old threads like this 8-year old thread. But, I have a question about the C&EI that maybe someone here can help provide an answer.

The C&EI maintained inbound and outbound freight houses in the Dearborn Station area in downtown Chicago. I am curious about the volume of LCL traffic handled by the C&EI at these two sites.

I read where the Erie inbound and outbound freight house at 14th Street in Chicago loaded regularly scheduled cars to 41 destinations and received cars from 32 other freight stations in the 1930s.

Since the C&EI maintained separate, and much larger, inbound and outbound freight houses, I presume that its numbers were even larger. Could anyone direct me to a source that would provide this information?

Thanks.

Rich

[pwkrueger]

Yes, the C&EI was part of the Frisco system at the beginning of the 20th century.  Actually, it was the Frisco-Rock Island system.  It was broken up before WWI, I think.  There is an interesting story there that has never really been well documented.

[DENNIS SCHAUER]

It's actually I-294/80 right near the Thornton quarry.  It is just east of Halsted though.  I drive under it every day going to work.  The line is jointly owned by UP and CSX south to Woodland Jct.  UP then goes southwest and CSX goes southeast from Woodland.

[DENNIS SCHAUER]

I forgot to mention the C&EI Historical Museum is in the old train station in
Watseka, IL. The last time I looked, it was only open on Saturdays for a few hours.

[BLS53]

MP173

Railray:

Thanks for the update and welcome to the forum.

So, is UP using the MtVernon - Chester and the Gorham - Benton lines for directional running ( like one way streets)?

Prior to the upgrading, what was the status and usage of the Mt. Vernon - Chester line?  Was it a secondary line, or used for locals, possibly coal?

About how many trains does UP run on the ex C&EI south of Salem these days?

BTW, I grew up in Southern Illinois, not quite as far south as you and we would play the Class AA Basketball regionals in West Frankfort.  Coach Rich Herrin at Benton had some pretty good teams, his brother Ron was my h/s coach at Olney.

ed

 

As of 2018, all the trains I see on the line from Benton to Gorham, are westbound. There's several trains that come out of the coal terminals in Metropolis IL and Jesup KY, that take this routing. It's probably the most circuitous routing one could take from Paducah to St. Louis, but I suppose coal doesn't care. Back before CN bought IC, UP ran up the Edgewood Cut-off to  Akin Jct., and took the IC DuQuion line to Pinckneyville, where it joined the UP to Chester. But CN wouldn't let UP continue with that arrangement for whatever reason. The current routing has them going 75 miles due north to Benton, then 50 miles southwest to Gorham, then another 80 north along the river to St. Louis. This is 205 miles for what is 130 as the crow flies.

What the routing is in the opposite direction, I have no idea. 

[BLS53]

Deggesty

Ed, that's an excellent description. But, remember that the MoP was already east of the Mississippi--the freight line from East St. Louis went down the east bank to Thebes, where the C&EI (the Egyptian Zipper ran down this way from Chicago)  came in, and both roads crossed the river there (I believe that the C&EI had trackage rights). What the MoP gained was, as  you noted, its own, more direct, line into Chicago. I am not positive, but I have the impression that the track north of Woodland Jct. is wholly owned by the UP, and CSX has trackage rights. The SLSW had trackage rights over the MoP from East St. Louis into Missouri, and then was on its own south and west. Now, it's one big happy? family.

Johnny

 

At least going back to the 1950's, the C&EI passenger trains terminated at Cypress. The Thebes line had one freight train a day, known as the "Chaffee Turn". They interchanged cars with the Frisco at Chaffee MO. Also there was some switching done with the GM&O at Tamms IL. The train ran late at night southbound, and returned the next afternoon. I think the crews were based, and the train originated out of Salem IL.

In the 60's, the C&EI line from Salem south, was lightly used compared to the way UP uses it now. APEX and TVA powerplants and barge terminals are the main source of business. There's four of them within 50 miles of one another along the Ohio and Tennessee Rivers. BNSF and CN also serve these facilities, but the UP seems to have the bulk of the business.