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[quote user="wsherrick"][quote user="Bucyrus"] This gets into one very controversial aspect of the discussion of steam art advancement.  I am all for the scientific and engineering advancement of steam and its reconsideration of use for railroad motive power.  I also love the historic age of steam and the diesel era as well.  However, I am absolutely opposed to the modernization of historic steam antiques.  There is no reason to make these engines capable of moving more tonnage or burning less fuel unless it is in the mind of ones who fail to understand the point of preserving historically authentic antiques.I have heard all the arguments; that these operators must compromise authenticity for the pragmatism of operating efficiency---and that the upgrades are hidden so the public will never know.  And besides, the riding customers are mostly not railfans, and hardly know anything about railroads, let alone steam locomotives.As I mentioned previously, the Durango & Silverton has been offered strong recommendations to modify their locomotives with GP fireboxes and Lempor exhausts.  At this time, they seem inclined to turn down the proposal in favor of addressing the overnight smoke nuisance with scrubbers.  At one point Wasatch Railroad Contractors and the Smoke Mitigation Taskforce were both soliciting public input on solutions for the smoke issue.  I made it clear to both groups that I was opposed to destroying historical authenticity of the locomotives by radical upgrades in pursuit of efficiency.   Shutdown discussions notwithstanding, hearing that UP has added a Lempor exhaust to their Challenger depresses me.  [/quote]Don't be depressed.  There are several Challengers sitting in parks, rusting away, perfectly authentic, useful only to the birds perching on their steam domes.From your posts, I think you are a good man who really cares about steam engines and history and I respect that.  But if a railroad ever has the misfortune of being run by railfans, it will soon be broke.  If a railroad ever gave any credence to railfans, that railroad would soon be bankrupt. What depresses me are museums.  They really do.  I've been to several and it makes me sad to see all of those locomotives standing out a pasture, solemnly rusting away, dead and cold never to function again.  How interesting is that?  What's the point of having all of them like the Illinois Museum for example, one stuffed and mounted engine is enough to show how big they are.   Something that is designed to be functional is only interesting to me if it is functioning.  Perhaps it is because my point of view is different.  I don't look at the Challenger as an antique, but a living, viable piece of equipment, just like the people who built it did.  I see the D&S locomotives in the same light.  They are functioning to perform the service of transportation. That's what they were built to do.  Yes they are historic and they serve in that function as well.  They perform their task very well, but since we have been talking about the D&S's problems with the town and the eviro-whacko's they need to invest in the best option to insure their existence or the railroad could BECOME history. I did a lot of investigation and read back issues of the Durango Herald, etc. and there it said that the owner of the D&S is going to spend over a million dollars to address the smoke issue.  A scrubber in the roundhouse isn't historically accurate either.  I can't understand for the life of me why this man can't try changing the way he operates his railroad (such as banking the fires instead of keeping them steamed up all night for example) before he blows such a big wad of cash which could put the viability of the Railroad in jeopardy.  Modernizing the locomotives and examining ways to improve methods is in my mind the only logical, prudent (and cheaper) course of action. Go ahead spend the 250 grand each to modify the locomotives if this man decides to do that he'll never look back.  It doesn't make them any less historic or change their character-it makes them more viable.  Should an engine operating today that was built without a superheater but got one later in its life, be put back to running on wet steam?  If it later got an electric headlight and piston valves, should it be rebuilt with slide valves and an oil lamp.  The answer is obviously no.I believe that the UP is a different case than the D&S altogether.  They have spent a car load of money doing these modifications to the Challenger and I can't believe it is just for the occasional excursion.  If so, why not modify the 844?  It is the first engine in the excursion roster and it hasn't been modified.  So why do it to the Challenger and why the clamp down on the publicity about it? Maybe, just maybe somebody at Union Pacific has got a clue. The Challenger might become even more historic in its future role, whatever that may be.  I know it's really hard not to think of steam as a historic thing and not look at in any future light other than excursion service.  That is the status quo mind set and it is hard to break out of that box.David Wardale with the 5at project is getting hassled in England by the, "Preservation Set," because he is building on something totally new.  Since steam is only viewed by the common person at present as an excursion tool, he is building it in that context with the full intention of once the World sees just how superior this new engine will be, the foundation will be set to sell steam for everyday use.  Incidentally they have a freight version of the 5at hiding behind the curtain.  I find it astounding that he has to take this approach, but he does and I understand it. [/quote]I understand your point of view, but I believe you are mischaracterizing some of what I said.  I don't see any analogy between those who want historical authenticity telling the D&S so, and railfans telling the railroads how to operate. Also, I have no trouble at all breaking out of the box and looking at steam as a future development for applications other than excursion service.  And at the same time, I can look at steam as an historical thing.  I am not, however, able to reconcile the two opposing principles.  In fact, it seems to me that those who believe they can reconcile them are actually dismissing the historical principle rather than reconciling it with modern steam.  For example, you say that adding GP fireboxes and Lempor exhausts to the D&S engines "doesn't make them any less historic or change their character-it makes them more viable."  I disagree.  It might make them more viable, but it also does indeed change their historic character.  It does not completely destroy their historical character, but it destroys a lot of it.  I also disagree with your assertion that the D&S locomotives are functioning to perform the service of transportation.  In a way it is true because people are being transported, but the objective is recreation, the fun of the ride, and the mountain scenery, not the need to get from point A to point B.I too prefer seeing engines operating, as opposed to stuffed and mounted, however, I regard the fact that they were saved from scrap to be stuffed and mounted to be a major achievement even if the ultimate success of return to operation is not achieved. You suggested that one stuffed and mounted engine is all you need because just one would suffice to show how big steam locomotives are.  A stuffed and mounted engine tells me a lot more than just how big locomotives are, and I think the more that were saved, the better off we were. I never intended to suggest that all rebuilt locomotives be rebuilt to their as-manufactured configuration despite the fact that they were upgraded periodically by the railroad owner during their service lives.  And I realize that some modern materials are typically used in even so-called historic restorations.  I would not object to that kind of minor compromise.If the case can be made for modern steam that can replace diesels, why not just go ahead and build it and prove the point?  It seems like wishful thinking that the UP is going to bridge that gap by modernizing their Challenger.
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