So Where Is This Powder River Basin?

[ironhorseman]

I hear about the Powder River Basin all the time but just where is it exactly? I found on mapquest.com there's a Powder River, Wyoming, that's up by Casper, but searching for Powder River Basin on the internet I get all kinds of links. Some of these maps arn't very good or detailed. One map shows this basin covering both Wyoming and Montana.

The reason I ask is OG&E sends a UP coal train from the Powder River Basin to Red Rock, Oklahoma, near Ponca City. They have trackage rights over BNSF to get there which is why I see them. I'm looking at an a 1988 UP system map. Back then it looks that the BN was the only RR through the PRB. I guess the UP then uses it's track through Nebraska and from other info sources they switch to BNSF track at Topeka the rest of the way.

And where else do they take coal to from this basin? And how much coal is removed from there in a month? A year? Has Trains run any articles on this basin? (all i could find were some past newswire clips).

Here are some websites I found that I think are related:

http://www.powderriverbasin.org/

http://www.biodiversityassociates.org/general/mapgallery/prb/cbm.html

http://www.oge.com/

[Anonymous]

Ironhorseman,
BN was the only one in the PRB until 1984 that's when UNCLE PETE AND C&NW came in and stole Business from BN. It's in the Douglas just follow Highway 51
Hope This Helps
DOGGY

[kenneo]

Doggy, they didn't exactly steal anything. The CNW "Cowboy Line" and the Q's Gillette line both transverse part of the deposits. They got together to build a third line west of the Gillette line and east of the Cody line and it somewhat follows the Wyoming highway that runs between Douglas and Gillette. But the CNW couldn't get the money to rebuild the Cowboy, so the UP stepped in and helped. For a while, it was the UP, the Q (later BN) and the CNW. The Cowboy Line was abandoned (except about 100 miles of it to various regionals and shortlines) and now the DME is attempting to build in along the Cheyenne River to create an alternate.

The coal deposits, generally, run up the eastern side of Wyoming and into Montana, but there are also deposits around the Green River along the UP and in the Yampa Basin between Toponas and Steamboat Springs on the DRGW (now UP). There is at least one coal mine near Lander, where the Cowboy ended. Only the eastern Wyoming and Montana deposits are considered Powder River.

[Anonymous]

As noted, if you follow Wy Hwy 59 from Gillette to Douglas, its all along that stretch. There are also 3 mines north of Gillette. Do a mapquest search on Bill WY. Bill is the UP crew change point at the South end of the coal line. If you zoom in 2 clicks, you'll see the track on the map. If you follow them north, where ever you see a spur run of or a track that runs off and makes a loop (baloon track) those are the coal load-outs at the mines.

[Anonymous]

I remember a little while ago , I think it was trains magazine did some write ups about the powder river coal mines & where they shipped the coal to & by what railroads . They ship to Wisconsin , Texas , ect. & pretty much all over . I remember seeing a map of the power plants & mines also. I've been to the powder river basin quite a few times & no matter where you take photos the sights & sounds are spectacular. My favorite spot is about 5mi. north of Douglas on a ranch road near an overpass , But it looks like near Gillette there is more rail traffic. PS; Pentrex has a very good video out called "Powder River Basin Coal Trains".................Burlington Northern & Chicago and Northwestern. 90min. with very good informative naration. & I think there is another one out besides this one. Hope this helps you out .

[Anonymous]

I suspect the difficulty you're having in locating the Powder River Basin is that a "basin" in geologic terms is a structural feature of the subsurface geology, not a surface feature you can see with your eye.

If you look in the October 2003 Map of the Month it shows the exact demarcations of ALL the western coal basins. The Powder River Basin is named for the river that drains this area. It run north-south in eastern Wyoming and southeastern Montana. The Hanna, Wyoming, area coal fields are not in the Powder River Basin; which can be seen not only by physical separation but that the coal type in this field and the nature of the seams is completely different than in the PRB: for instance:

Medicine Bow Mine, Hanna Field:
10,400 Btu/lb. 0.6% sulfur, 14% moisture, 7% ash, 33% volatile matter

Black Thunder Mine, Powder River Basin:
8,800 Btu/lb., 0.32% sulfur, 27.0% moisture, 5.5% ash, 29-35% volatile matter

In other words, when you buy a ton of PRB coal, you're buying 540 pounds of water, whereas when you buy a ton of Hanna coal, you're buying 280 pounds of water. However, Hanna coal is in thinner, steeply tilted seams, so is more expensive to mine and thus less competitive.

The November 1989 issue had a large, thorough article on the PRB and its railroads. It's probably still available as a back issue from Kalmbach.

[mudchicken]

Aw heck.....just go to the mountains and turn right........

[Mookie]

geology question here: When you mine out all that coal - it leaves a hole, does it not?

How does this affect the surrounding territory? And what will be the long term effect on the geology of that entire region?

[tree68]

Most subsurface mining leaves columns in place to hold up the ceiling. In theory, if they are big enough, the surface should never see any difference. I recall reading on another thread, or someplace, anyhow, that subsidence (settling of the land) can indeed occur. I would imagine that if a catastrophic failure of a column occured some years from now that it would take neighboring columns out, etc, etc, and you'd see a definite effect on the surface.

Of course, that's based on what I've read... Any miners out there?

As my house sets slowly in the west.....

[zardoz]

Mookie-

If memory serves, the PRB coal is strip-mined (just scrape off some dirt, and the coal is there, then it is 'stripped' away.

Surrounding territory? Being as is is such a desolate place, I would think the impact would be minimal.

Long term effect? How long a term? Being as that entire area was the bottom of a huge lake about 80 million years ago, who knows what it will be in another 80 million. There are even tropical fossils found in Antarctica, so long-term could mean anything, depending on your reference point.

And in another 2 billion years our sun will go nova, boiling away all the oceans of Earth, scorching the surface destroying all life, and eventually expanding large enough to engulf Mercury, Venus, Earth, and possibly Mars. It will then cool to a white dwarf, and slowly dim and cool until it goes dark and cold. Thus is the fate of our world.

Have a nice day.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

geology question here: When you mine out all that coal - it leaves a hole, does it not?

How does this affect the surrounding territory? And what will be the long term effect on the geology of that entire region?

Each mine has to go through a reclamation process. The overburden that was stripped off to get to the coal seam is returned and the pit to some extent is filled. Im sure they have to add more overburn if its a bigger pit, but Im not positive. The mine usually has to plant native grasses and trees and so forth to make it look as natural as possible to the surrounding area. In other words when you look at one of these reclaimed areas, you wouldnt think it was an old mine in its previous life.

I also think that some old mines have been turned into lakes and reservoirs. I recall hearing something on WGN that Chicago is using 3 old open pit mines to store storm water. There hoping this would help with curing Chicago's flooding problem.

Also isent there an old mine, forgot where, that is now a PGA golf course?

Im not sure if all pits have to be reclaimed as in old ones that havent seen decades of work. I think these are what the government calls "superfund" sites. But I do know that all new mines have to have a reclamation plan before ever starting up.

Hope this helps.

Steve

[Mookie]

Interesting as usual. Thank you!

[ironhorseman]

WOW! Thanks for all the great information, tips and pointing me in the right direction. I've had two geology classes and everything Larry and Steve said about the mining descriptions right (aw, nuts they beat me to it!) It's really amazing what kind of new machinery they use to mine now. Some machines allow it so that no man has to even enter the mine, a long mechanical arm digs and scoops out coal. Of course the land sinks when minerals are mined, alter the surface landscape. But like Steve was saying, new laws and practices in mining prevent as much devestating damage to the landscape as has been caused in the past.

And thanks to zardoz for that enlighting description of Earth's future. [;)]

[Anonymous]

UP RR photo of the conveyors and load-out silos at Black Thunder Mine near Wright WY
http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/photos/dieselfreightaction/coal/95-15.shtml

Article re: Black Thunder
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/thunder/

The big drag line at Black Thunder
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/thunder/thunder4.html
Just for sense of scale, you could drive 2 full size pick up trucks, side-by-side into the bucket on Ursa Major.

Official Black Thunder website
http://www.archcoal.com/aboutus/blackthunder.asp

Bureau of Land Mgt site for the Powder River mines
http://www.wy.blm.gov/minerals/coal/prb/prb.htm

[Anonymous]

This photo really captures the feel of that part of WY
http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/photos/dieselfreightaction/coal/4944.shtml

The powder river basin is largely in Campbell County WY. This county is about the same size as the entire State of Conn.

Here's more UP photos
http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/photos/dieselfreightaction/coal/

[kenneo]

Here is a map showing the locations of the PRB

http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/maps/upcomnam.pdf

or

http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/maps/graphics/upcomnam2.gif

[Anonymous]

Ahh yes the thrill of running the Wastach in a blasting blizzard or the desolate wastes up by Casper and towards the Continentail Divide in Montana. I always found the area wild and beautiful.

I was "Burned out" by the detailed coal information (Pun not intended) I am struck by an idea of why dont they just heat the water out of that them dar coal?? In fact it leads me to ponder what in heck is a steam locomotive going to do with all that water vapor inside the boiler. Youck!

Best of luck to your hunt for the information!

Lee

[Anonymous]

The moisture has one upside advantage. It gives the coal enough weight so that is doesn't get blown out of the hopper cars in transit.

[CShaveRR]

Any downside advantages? Upside disadvantages?

[jeaton]

Moisture content in the coal is just part of the deal. I am not sure that it would be possible to force water out of the structure without loosing some of the volatile carbon gases and the associated BTU's. Beyond that, the cost of the BTU's expended to dry the coal would probably exceed the cost of freight on the moisture.

When it closed in the late 90's, Old Ben Coal's Mine 1in southern Indiana was the oldest continously operating surface coal mine in the U.S. Its beginning predates any reclaimation laws and initially the overburden was just left in piles. Very rough terrain, but small lakes and overgrowth make it great for wildlife. Initial reclaimation laws reuired restoration to original contour and later, top soil had to be preserved and replaced, with plant life restarted.

Early underground mining was called room and pillar. A very large proportion of the coal was left in place to support the roof. As mining equipment was developed, this type of mining continued, but the equipment allowed for retreat mining. Starting at the far reaches of the mine, the pillars were removed and the roof was allowed to colapse. The highest productivity is obtained with longwall mining. Tunnels are driven in a seam to establi***he parameters of a panel of coal up to 800 feet wide and maybe a mile long. An auger moves back and forth across the 800 foot face, ripping out and dropping the coal on a coveyor that carries the coal to the tipple for lifing to the surface.
The auger operates under movable roof supporting devices and as the operation moves forward, the roof is allowed to fall, behind the ceiling supports.

So... surface subsidence. With pillars left in place, subsidence is "if and when". (Why wasn't I told that coal was mind under my house 50 years ago???) If the pillars are remove on retreat, or long wall mining is employed, subsidence might begin within hours or days after the coal is removed.

[Anonymous]

Where is this PRB ?

The replys give a mass of good information about that what railfans call PRB!

But nobody, possible that I not read this, give an answer to the question. Look at a map and you will find two Powder River Basin coal fields.

Not far away, there is a small one in Montana and one in Wyoming.

What railfans call PRB ist exact the SOUTHERN POWDER RIVER BASIN between Gilette and Orin in Wyoming. UP, like many others, use also the shortversion SPRB!

Coal production in 2002 in the NPRB: 5 million tons. SPRB (2003): 363 million tons.
The reserves in the NPRB were 161 million tons at the end of 2002 North Antelope-Rochelle ship this in only two years