....Because "we" collectively don't want to spend the money for a rail transportation system. {I'd rather not get started on where and what we do spend it on....}.
Quentin
As a nation the US doesn't have the centralized population density like Europe and Asia.... yet. Passenger trains are not very effective if people live all spread out.
There are parts of the US that have the right pop, older Eastern citys for example.
Compare the distances of major cities in US to Europe; New York, Chicago, LA, SanFransisco, Denver, Seatle, Dallas etc,
Then in Europe; Paris, London, Brussels, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Berlin, Milan, Rome. But even in Europe people fly from Berlin to Rome.
Yes, unfortunately, air travel between European airports has increased, mainly due to low cost air shuttles and the high cost of rail travel. This has forced the RRs to offer special prices in order to attract customers back.
With between 5 and 15 days of paid time off a year, I can understand why most Americans are unwilling to spend the 2 days travelling by train from NYC to Chicago, when they could fly and be there in a couple of hours.
I'll be taking a trip to a conference next month. I must travel from near Nuremburg to Dresden. The trip to Nuremburg airport would take me an hour and a half, plus two hours to check in and get through security, 45 minutes in the air, another hour to get from Dresden airport to downtown, a total of 4 hrs. 15 min. The same trip by car would take me 6 hrs., barring any traffic jams, and 5 1/2 hrs. by train. In this case, though, the train trip will be less expensive than the other two alternatives.
The distances in the US between cities just aren't conducive to intercity rail travel. The few routes that are available (outside of the corridors) often serve remote, inconvenient stations at irregular hours. I lived in San Antonio, TX in the late 80s, a city which in Europe would have at least one major train station and several secondary stations for long distance connections, not to mention an extensive system of light and heavy commuter rail running through the city like a spider's web. Instead, San Antonio had a lousy bus system for local travel, a Greyhound bus station, and an Amtrak station with ONE platform. This station was served by 2 weekly trains which made their stops in the dead of the night.
I don't think the US will ever have intercity passenger service like Europe or Japan. It's better to compare the US to countries like China or Russia. Then you won't feel so bad!
.....And I believe even China is building high speed rail...!
Well China is even more heavly populated. When you're that populated it becomes cheaper to build electric railways then too many hiways.
Russia is more comparable I would think, such a huge place, but Russia does not have a mature paved huiway system, that makes a difference in rail usage.
.....And China is busy building super highways too.
Yes and Europe has exelent freeway system, but China will get a bigger bang for the buck with trains, because they are overwelmingly over populated. I'm sure they are expanding airports too, they need it all.
Americans even when they do travel by train they take the car to the station. Stations are huge parking lots [ugly in my opinion] unless hardly serviced by trains. I used to walk to the station, there was nothing nice near it, just huge paved areas for parking, and so were most stations. In Europe most stations have a minimal parking area, the stations are surounded by shops and residents. That's how you make it work. But if you wanna live in a bungalow out in the feild, none is gonna make a train station to stop a train to pick you up if you know what I meen?!
What is the minimum connect time between intercity trains in the Berlin Station?
The article listed some of the types of trains in Germany. It omitted the EuroCity trains which are international Intercity trains which make limited stops, link major cities in different countries, average a minimum of 55 mph, carry first and second coaches and a dining car.
TH&B wrote:
"Yes and Europe has exelent freeway system, but China will get a bigger bang for the buck with trains, because they are overwelmingly over populated. I'm sure they are expanding airports too, they need it all.
Americans even when they do travel by train they take the car to the station. Stations are huge parking lots [ugly in my opinion] unless hardly serviced by trains. I used to walk to the station, there was nothing nice near it, just huge paved areas for parking, and so were most stations. In Europe most stations have a minimal parking area, the stations are surounded by shops and residents. That's how you make it work. But if you wanna live in a bungalow out in the feild, none is gonna make a train station to stop a train to pick you up if you know what I meen?!"
Commuter stations in Germany are often surrounded by large parking lots, which are just as ugly anywhere else. Only the main stations are smack-dab in the middle of downtown, but there are plenty of examples of this in the US: Grand Central Station in NYC, 30th St. Station in Philly, Union Station in Washington, etc. But these stations were already surrounded by the towns they were built in before mass motorisation took place.
The station in our county seat of Ansbach, capital of the Bavarian province of Central Franconia, recently built a 5 level parking garage just adjacent to the freight classification tracks.
First, the USA is not a couple of decades behind Europe in terms of stations and trains: we are unquestionably 63 years behind and we will never catch up in anyone's lifetime.
Why? Well, bluntly, the Republican Party. Who pushed for Interstates? Who controlled the major US corporations? Which party is controlled by oil interests and "the highway lobby"? Which party has consistently opposed Amtrak, fought its appropriations, and has often tried to kill it entirely since 1972, and does to this date (see the latest Admin. budget proposals)?
Like any good railfan and Trains reader, I thrilled to the pictures and content of the recent article on the Berlin Central Station. What a wonderful place that must be! Now, compare that with Penn Station, Chicago Union, Los Angeles, or 30th Street. No comparioson. Our best stuff is 50 to 100 years old (tunnels under the Hudson to Penn Sta) and not in real good shape.
Going to England and then to Paris by train a few months ago made me feel ashamed. Europe is not only ready for the 21st century, it is actively engaging the future. "Now" is in Europe, not the USA and you can feel it in the atmosphere. In the USA, we are ready, transportation-wise, not for the 21st century,but for about 1965.
We worship at the altar of "low taxes" in America. Well, we get what we pay for. What have we done with all the money we've "saved" by not having European-level taxes? Where have we invested our money? How about in a crumbling interstate highway system, a bailed-out savings and loan scandal, and a useless (at best) war in Iraq costing us $2 billion a month? And which party gave us all that?
Why is it that there's always money to bail out the business community but never enough for public health, education, or Amtrak?
The USA will someday get its eqivilent of Berlin Central Station. But by then the world and the future will have entirely bypassed the USA, which will still be debating whether to give infrastucture and trains a few more dollars than last year.
History shows that investments in infrastructure more than pay for themselves.
NKP guy wrote:First, the USA is not a couple of decades behind Europe in terms of stations and trains: we are unquestionably 63 years behind and we will never catch up in anyone's lifetime.
In my experience they have also moved ahead with their version of the Interstate highways. While most Interstates in the US are crumbling and often offer a bumpy ride, in Europe/UK I find they are in much better condition. For example, in England the motoways are very smooth and lined with street lights the entire length of the route. You are constantly passing maintenance crews which are a rare find in the US. But ironically, they complain about the condition of their roads as well.
With the trains, I saw a neat invention in Germany a few years ago. We were hauling our baggage from a pedestrian tunnel up to the platform. Beside the stairs was a little convey belt about the width of a suitcase. It was stopped but as soon as a suit case was placed on it zip up the stairs taking your bag with you. A small little thing but an example of the attention to detail they have done.
Make that 12 billion a month for a useless war. We can't even pay for it without borrowing from China, Japan, Korea and Europe to pay for it. Americans are too used to the idea that having a car is a status symbol and aren't patient enough to ride the trains. Everyone is always in a hurry to get nowhere. We don't know how to relax and enjoy the ride and see the senery.
Until people are forced to ride trains because of the cost of gas, rail transportation will always suffer.
Trains aren't cheap to ride. Car pooling will undercut train travel in price and can still get you where you're going.
On Manhatten trains are faster then cars.
NKP guy wrote: Like any good railfan and Trains reader, I thrilled to the pictures and content of the recent article on the Berlin Central Station. What a wonderful place that must be! Now, compare that with Penn Station, Chicago Union, Los Angeles, or 30th Street. No comparioson. Our best stuff is 50 to 100 years old (tunnels under the Hudson to Penn Sta) and not in real good shape. The USA will someday get its eqivilent of Berlin Central Station. But by then the world and the future will have entirely bypassed the USA, which will still be debating whether to give infrastucture and trains a few more dollars than last year.
Hi - you say "...compare [Berlin's station] with Penn Station, Chicago Union, Los Angeles, or 30th street." How would you compare them? Size, number of train movements, or simply by their respective ages? Each of the stations you mention have been extensively renovated and operate efficiently for their geographic territory and daily train movements. In what way are these stations something "to be ashamed of"?
Regarding the relative age of the Hudson tunnels--since when do tunnels wear out due to old age? These have been maintained and are a vital transportation link between New England and points south. There's even a program to place two new tunnels to mid-town Manhattan, and and there's the East Side Connector already underway.
Additionally, the USDOT has just announced a major grant program to the tune of $30 million:
http://www.metro-magazine.com/News/Story/2008/08/U-S-DOT-announces-new-rail-grant-program.aspx
"Twenty-five forward-thinking proposals from 22 states to improve intercity passenger rail service and help relieve traffic congestion in many regions of the U.S. will compete for $30 million in federal funding under a new Bush Administration grant program, announced U.S. Secretary of Transportation Mary E. Peters.
"Our goal is to achieve long-term improvements in intercity passenger rail service by supporting state investments that get real results," said Secretary Peters. She added that the U.S. Department of Transportation is currently reviewing the proposals and will determine final grant awards in September.
Proposed projects include: installing advanced signaling systems to increase track speeds, reconfiguring track junctions to enhance operational efficiency and constructing additional main line track to keep trains moving. Most of the grant applications seek to improve existing passenger rail routes, while a few involve planning activities for the creation of an entirely new service. Each federal grant awarded will require a 50-50 funding match, Peters said.
The Federal Railroad Administration will evaluate each proposal for key program priorities such as inclusion of intercity passenger rail in state plans to address congestion and a project's ability to reduce travel times, increase service frequency or enhance service quality. Since some projects also will benefit the operations of private freight railroads on whose tracks passenger trains primarily run, a commitment by the host railroad to improve on-time performance will be a major consideration in evaluating proposals, added Peters.
The Bush Administration called for creation of this first-ever federal-state funding partnership as part of its long standing intercity passenger rail reform effort, and is requesting $100 million for this grant program in its proposed FY 2009 budget.
Feel free to argue that $30 million isn't enough, won't do enough, etc. but as a rider of Acela Express and Regional trains for business trips throughout the NEC, I don't/can't agree with your assesment that we have a terrible rail system where the pop density supports it. All of the trips I've taken on the NEC have been on full trains -- no lack of riders.
Paul F.
Northern NJ
Modelcar wrote: ....Because "we" collectively don't want to spend the money for a rail transportation system. {I'd rather not get started on where and what we do spend it on....}.
Did you see Don Phillips column? We get what we pay for. And what have we paid for?
Lets see , money collected in taxes is wasted money. It gets wasted by BIG government. Please give me a break. This is our government. Not someone elses. We have a government Of The People, By The People And For The People.
At least when we had tax & spend (fill in the blank) money was being raised to spend. Instead we got tax cut & spend. Who's more responsible?
I may seem a little sarcastic.We have spent a lot of money to make sure that our country have some of the best experts in the world and have spent considerable sums to make sure they stay experts. If only those elected would listen to some of our experts.
We have a great country here.
Rgds IGN
andrewjonathon wrote:I tried carpooling a few years ago. It really bites. If you have to stay at work even 5 extra minutes you miss your ride and then you are shelling out cash for an alternative. When you do catch your ride you feel you have to make small talk with the rest of the crew. I'd rather take the bus or train to work where you read or sleep and at least have a little flexibility.
I agree -- I carpooled for one summer in Northern California and then gave it up for Golden Gate Transit from my hometown to my office. The bus provided time to work on my laptop and the anonymity to avoid the chit-chat issue.
Check out what Google does to support their employees:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/10/technology/10google.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1218292341-E7RMqLF7U+4Oslu8XSOF+g
They effectively run their own bus line.
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