Commuter and freight, or just freight?
ed
I just stayed on UP's line in Malta IL which will see the same freight traffic through the Chicago suburbs from Elmhurst west. On Sunday Jan. 13th I got 49 trains. I think they normally run more than that though, closer to 60 I believe. I only caught 11 coal trains and I was thinking they ran closer to 20. I don't really know why I caught so few. Anyway, the count is probably close to 100 with all the Metra's east of Elburn.
I've never actually stayed along the BNSF CB&Q line, so I can't really give you an accurate number, but my guess would be something like 50ish+ freights plus MANY MANY Metra and some Amtrak, I think 8 of them. Well over 100 trains a day on the weekdays on this line.
Oh and as far as a website, you should love this one: http://www.dhke.com/CRJ/
Both. I know the Commuters stop out in La Fox on the U.P. and Aurora on BNSF. I'm mostly concerned with the trains in the Suburbs Between IL. 47 and IL. 53 but I realize that isn't easy to pin down just an average through the suburbs is all I'm looking for.
John Eldredge wrote:Both. I know the Commuters stop out in La Fox on the U.P. and Aurora on BNSF. I'm mostly concerned with the trains in the Suburbs Between IL. 47 and IL. 53 but I realize that isn't easy to pin down just an average through the suburbs is all I'm looking for.
Are you only looking at those two specific lines? There are other UP lines that run between 47 and 53.
John Eldredge wrote:Thanks I'll check out the website. Since I live and work around both of the lines it's easy to pull over a watch the traffic on both lines. I'm trying to get information for a project at work. Imagine that my instructions were to go find information on the rail road! The maps from the early 2000's were in the 60 range for freight I assumed they had increased since I continue to hear reports traffic is on the rise.
A railroad project for work!! Where the heck do you work?!!
My count on the UP, like I said, I don't think is very normal, but I doubt they had much increase in traffic these past years. And I really cannot be sure how much the CB&Q increased though I would guess coal and intermodal traffic rose through there with all the BNSF coals they run on through to the eastern RR's. I would bet the line that had the largest increase in traffic is the ex-sante fe transcon just south of the CB&Q with close to 60 trains in 24 hours on the busy days.
The company I work for has a number of properties along the RR lines out in the Chicago Suburbs. It came up at a staff meeting and as soon as trains were brought up everyone looked at me "no problem" I said. Our interest is in the CN purchase of EJ&E. Through a day of web searches I was able to paste together a resonable number for each line. There seems to be +/- 120 a day on each line when all trains are concidered. Thanks for all the help everyone! John
eolafan wrote:I am not exactly sure but I seem to recall the total number of ALL trains (Amtrak, commuter and freight) between Chicago and Aurora (both directions) is well over 100 per day...while I am not sure, I CAN tell you this line really "rocks" at times with very little down time between trains.
The last time I researched this, at LaGrange there were 48 Metra trains per day in each direction for a total of 96. Add in Amtrak and the 55-60 freights and the number is about 160-170 on a good day.
Some of the Metra trains only go west as far as Downers Grove, then return, IIRC. So they all don't trundle past Eola. On the other hand, at Eola we get stuff coming east off the C&I and Illinois Railnet that don't go through to the city. And outward, as well, including trains going on and off the J.
Jim, maybe we ought to pick a good day in late summer and declare it "West Eola Day" and see how many show up. Pick a day when Bergie can make it.
Poppa_Zit wrote: eolafan wrote:I am not exactly sure but I seem to recall the total number of ALL trains (Amtrak, commuter and freight) between Chicago and Aurora (both directions) is well over 100 per day...while I am not sure, I CAN tell you this line really "rocks" at times with very little down time between trains.The last time I researched this, at LaGrange there were 48 Metra trains per day in each direction for a total of 96. Add in Amtrak and the 55-60 freights and the number is about 160-170 on a good day.Some of the Metra trains only go west as far as Downers Grove, then return, IIRC. So they all don't trundle past Eola. On the other hand, at Eola we get stuff coming east off the C&I and Illinois Railnet that don't go through to the city. And outward, as well, including trains going on and off the J.Jim, maybe we ought to pick a good day in late summer and declare it "West Eola Day" and see how many show up. Pick a day when Bergie can make it.
PZ, that sound like a wonderful idea. In order to get the full impact it will likely need to be a weekday. We can get all the Metra information we need from their schedules and ditto for Amtrak, and all we would need do is count freights and locals, etc. Let's keep on top of this...BERGIE, ARE YOU LISTENING TO THIS SUGGESTION?
Wdlgln005 wrote:Something new to me is having 8 Amtrak trains daily on BNSF. 2 LD's, the Chief & Zephyr,then the IL Zephyr & the new Carl Sandberg. (IMHO the state trains should be called the Toy Zephyr & the Toy Chief).
Many of us who live along the racetrack and/or frequent it while railfanning, call the state sponsored IL Zephyr "The Baby Zephyr".
I'll add my ...
Freight traffic on the BNSF East-End (Racetrack) is down with a lot of the higher priority Chicago area to Galesburg freight moving to the ex-Santa Fe Transcon. Most of the freight on the BNSF East-End uses the C&I Line going to, or coming from, points northwest (Minneapolis, Seattle, etc.). The ex-BN main between the Chicago area and Galesburg has a lot of lower priority freight trains. Passenger trains are up with the noted Amtrak additions.
Freight traffic on the UP main between Clinton and the Chicago area continues to increase. Intermodal trains now enter / exit the main at Nelson, IL (new Edelstein/BNSF connection) and coal train traffic has also increased a little. Getting an accurate count of freight trains on the UP Geneva Sub can be a little tricky as it's a multiple point (Clinton, SI Line at Nelson) to multiple terminal / point (Global III, W Chicago Yard/EJE, Proviso Yard/Global II, IHB, Chicago/Global I and other Chicago connections). A rough guess would be @45 on a very slow day to @75-80 on a very busy day (usually a Saturday) between Elburn and W Chicago. Passenger traffic on the UP West Line remains at 60. Metra would like to increase this number in the future, but this depends on adding more capacity - third track between 25th Ave in Maywood to Elmhurst - and more crossovers between Elmhurst and W. Chicago.
CC
I wonder what was the source for your information on the part about increasing capacity by adding a third track from 25th Avenue (formerly JN) in Melrose Park to Elmhurst? This gives westbound freights a place to hold during non-peak commuter times without blocking a wb Metra. Maybe someone figures that the approximately eight minutes lost for local Metra stops and a sixteen-minute window is as much as can be tollerated between fleets of expresses.
A third track and grade separation from River Forest to 25th Av would seem logical as well. Freights entering and leaving the east end of Proviso Yard add to the number of trains between 25th and Kedzie. This allows at least one express to overtake and pass a local. Extending the third track to Elmhurst would allow another express to overtake and pass in the stretch from Oak Park.
One of the most important improvements would be to construct a subway for Main 1 (Metra and eb freight) under the west leads to and from Proviso Yard in Elmhurst.
I would like to see a standard for 70 mph operation for Metra maintained or attained between River Forest and Elmhurst, even if it take some curve re-alignment.
A fourth track seems to be needed from Elmhurst to Kress Rd, West Chicago, and a third track from Kress Rd to Peck Rd, Geneva. East of Elmhurst, a significant volume of traffic diverges to Global II, over the IHB-CSX, and north.
eolafan wrote: Wdlgln005 wrote:Something new to me is having 8 Amtrak trains daily on BNSF. 2 LD's, the Chief & Zephyr,then the IL Zephyr & the new Carl Sandberg. (IMHO the state trains should be called the Toy Zephyr & the Toy Chief).Many of us who live along the racetrack and/or frequent it while railfanning, call the state sponsored IL Zephyr "The Baby Zephyr".
HarveyK400 wrote: I wonder what was the source for your information on the part about increasing capacity by adding a third track from 25th Avenue (formerly JN) in Melrose Park to Elmhurst? This gives westbound freights a place to hold during non-peak commuter times without blocking a wb Metra. Maybe someone figures that the approximately eight minutes lost for local Metra stops and a sixteen-minute window is as much as can be tolerated between fleets of expresses. A third track and grade separation from River Forest to 25th Av would seem logical as well. Freights entering and leaving the east end of Proviso Yard add to the number of trains between 25th and Kedzie. This allows at least one express to overtake and pass a local. Extending the third track to Elmhurst would allow another express to overtake and pass in the stretch from Oak Park.
Two sources have mentioned that third main track: CREATE and Metra. Metra wants it all the way from Vale to Park as part of their plan to make UP west service about as frequent as BNSF. CREATE is interested in solving congestion, and has suggested grade separations or other improvements at First Ave., Fifth Ave., and 25th Avenue, in addition to the third track between Park and (I think) Provo Junction.
Not sure if that fourth track west of Elmhurst is practical, but added crossovers (part of Metra's plan) definitely would be! Put them in just east of the holding points at Wheaton and Finley Road, and perhaps at the gravel pit in Elmhurst (to get scoots out from behind hung-up eastbound freights). Would like to see easing of the curves between Glen Ellyn and Wheaton, but that may not be practical from a land-acquisition standpoint.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
The fourth track is not a matter of "practicality" in the sense of being easy to do or relatively inexpensive. The CNW restricted freight operations in the peak periods years ago, holding trains until the peak had passed. I can only guess existing commuter operations are even more of a hinderance with increasing UP freight traffic. I am surprised UP is satisfied with improvements only between River Forest (Vale) and Elmhurst (Park?) to allow expanded service. The Chicago Region Environmental and Transportation Efficiency Program was put together a few years ago; and freight traffic reportedly has risen since.
What do you think of a subway (fly-under) for Main 1?
If Metra wants to increase service, it will take more high-rise condos, parking, and shuttle services to get riders to the trains. Metra needs a more pro-active campaign for suburban communities than was the policy at least a few years ago.
As for the curves through Glen Ellyn and Wheaton, fewer Metra expresses run through this area than east of Elmhurst, making a poorer case for acceptable costs and increasing rider satisfaction.
Secondly, claiming the Prairie Path for curve easements will not substantially improve speed, meet strong opposition, and generate bad relations.
I don't think the lay of the land would allow grade separation anywhere around Park (Proviso was largely built on swamp-land!), nor would the operational grades necessary be desirable. They had a big stink when they put the overpass downtown about how the grade had to be changed between there and the yard.
As for UP "being content" with Metra's plans, the impression I got when I went to the Metra hearing was that UP was not (yet) involved in Metra's plans. UP's demands or desires might make this more expensive than they're currently anticipating.
You may be right about the relative unimportance or desirability of cutting back on the curves between Glen Ellyn and Wheaton, but I suspect that an expanded Metra service would specifically include more express trains to commuities like Wheaton and Geneva.
You're absolutely right about the need for more parking just about everywhere. Another thing that's easier said than done.
As for a subway for Main 1 at Park, there are three issues: grades, crossing closure, and groundwater/drainage.
There is roughly 3,500 feet between the underpass at Palmer Dr and the lead to the receiving yard at Proviso. Allowing 700 feet for left and right crossovers, a reasonable preliminary grade of 1.07% would result for a 30 foot change in elevation.
Two crossings at Poplar and Arlington would would be affected by revisions to Park for the grade separation and most likely would need to be closed. A new crossing at Kenmore may be possible if not recommended given the volume of rail traffic. A new crossing also may be possible if not recommended by extending Geneva across the tracks and above the Main 1 subway from First to Park.
Subways are always prone to flooding and require a sump and pumps. The other main tracks provide an alternative routing in case the pumps fail and flooding occurs.
snagletooth wrote: eolafan wrote: Wdlgln005 wrote:Something new to me is having 8 Amtrak trains daily on BNSF. 2 LD's, the Chief & Zephyr,then the IL Zephyr & the new Carl Sandberg. (IMHO the state trains should be called the Toy Zephyr & the Toy Chief).Many of us who live along the racetrack and/or frequent it while railfanning, call the state sponsored IL Zephyr "The Baby Zephyr".I always knew them as "Little Z" and "Big Z", "Little C" and "Big C".
Somewhere in Aurora there is a Model RR club called the Little Q? Are they the folks that had a portable layout on the stage of the GMTS?
BTW March could be a good month to attend the NMRA/La Grange train show? Could be a good place to catch some BNSF action & the models inside? S/b at the Lyons Twp High school?
Wdlgln005 wrote: snagletooth wrote: eolafan wrote: Wdlgln005 wrote:Something new to me is having 8 Amtrak trains daily on BNSF. 2 LD's, the Chief & Zephyr,then the IL Zephyr & the new Carl Sandberg. (IMHO the state trains should be called the Toy Zephyr & the Toy Chief).Many of us who live along the racetrack and/or frequent it while railfanning, call the state sponsored IL Zephyr "The Baby Zephyr".I always knew them as "Little Z" and "Big Z", "Little C" and "Big C". Somewhere in Aurora there is a Model RR club called the Little Q? Are they the folks that had a portable layout on the stage of the GMTS? BTW March could be a good month to attend the NMRA/La Grange train show? Could be a good place to catch some BNSF action & the models inside? S/b at the Lyons Twp High school?
Yes, they are the club.
eolafan wrote: Wdlgln005 wrote: snagletooth wrote: eolafan wrote: Wdlgln005 wrote:Something new to me is having 8 Amtrak trains daily on BNSF. 2 LD's, the Chief & Zephyr,then the IL Zephyr & the new Carl Sandberg. (IMHO the state trains should be called the Toy Zephyr & the Toy Chief).Many of us who live along the racetrack and/or frequent it while railfanning, call the state sponsored IL Zephyr "The Baby Zephyr".I always knew them as "Little Z" and "Big Z", "Little C" and "Big C". Somewhere in Aurora there is a Model RR club called the Little Q? Are they the folks that had a portable layout on the stage of the GMTS? BTW March could be a good month to attend the NMRA/La Grange train show? Could be a good place to catch some BNSF action & the models inside? S/b at the Lyons Twp High school? Yes, they are the club.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program (or rather post topic)
The pyhsical plant at Park actually works very well for meeting the needs of Union Pacific and Metra. It might surprise a few people that one of the recent improvements to this plant was the extension of Metra service from Geneva to Elburn. The extension forced Metra to revise the eastbound passenger schedules. The eastbound local scoots used to stop at Elmhurst @40 minutes past each hour with the westbound local scoots stopping at Elmhurst @10 minutes past each hour. This meant that UP freights departing Proviso had an approximate 15-20 minute window between each scoot to get through the plant. Now, the eastbound local scoots stop at Elmhurst at @13 minutes past each hour increasing the window for freight traffic through the Park Plant.
If I remember this right, Metra would eventually like to see crossovers installed from: Track 2 to 3 (south main) and track 1 (north main) to track 2 just east of the Wheaton and Lombard stations. A new Wheaton plant might also include a track 2 to track one crossover (mainly for freight traffic posistioning).
A third track between the east end of Proviso Yard at 25th Ave in Melrose Park and Vale is prohibitive due to the number of crossings between 25th Ave and Vale and the lack of capacity on the Western Ave corridor and in the Global I yard. Why build the tracks if you don't have anywhere to hold/send the trains?
The reason for extending the third track from Vale to Elmhurst is for more frequent peak express Metra services, not a place to hold trains. I indicated some of my thinking in an earlier post.
Even so, grade separation and crossing elimination may be proposed from River Road to 25th Av. A third main extended west from Vale (removed) would be available during non-rush periods for holding trains. New crossovers could be installed east of the Oak Park station.
Your point about Park working better with the Elburn Extension rescheduling is interesting - something I wasn't aware of.
Still, While Metra hourly off-peak frequencies may work with freight; 1/2-hour service is needed for serious regional services. For 1/2-hour base and morning rush services, a Trk 1 subway and an additional main may be necessary from Park to Peck Rd.
As I mentioned, grade separation of the First Avenue, 25th Avenue, and one other crossing (Fifth?) is mentioned in CREATE's plan (the only other one on the UP West Line is Route 38, between West Chicago and Geneva).
Metra's reason for wanting to expand on this line is sort of strange--they just want to provide something that will take some expansion pressure off the BNSF line, which they consider to be operating at near capacity. One of the alternatives to help in that was a fourth track on BNSF, which was ruled out.
At the hearings, they talked about "comparable" service to BNSF on the UP West. So they aren't thinking about half-hour frequencies, since UP West already has better midday service (more frequent) than does BNSF.
The control point at Park is hardly an issue--it's vastly improved from what was available for traffic before the late 1980s.
East of HM/Park:
Back then: Two tracks (directional double track) around the yard, an outbound track from County Line, and an inbound track to Yard 9 (also used for outbound moves such as empty hopper trains).
Now: CTC on the main lines, two tracks to County Line/Global 2, and two tracks to Yard 9, all capable of being used in either direction.
Future: third track around the yard, also bi-directional.
West of HM/Park:
Back then: three tracks--one westbound, one eastbound, center track in either direction as needed.
Now: CTC on all three tracks. Same in the future.
The control point itself permits movement from any of the three tracks to the west to any of the six tracks to the east, and vice versa, and it is possible to move three trains through the plant simultaneously in any non-conflicting pattern (and I've seen it done in many of those!).
The problem lies to the west of the plant--once you get a train on one of those three tracks, it's stuck there until Turner (former NI), east of the West Chicago station. Hence the need for more crossovers.
There's also a problem east of the plant--not enough places to put coal trains in Yard 9. 30 Main goes around the yard, but isn't long enough for a whole train. They've reconfigured things so Track 29 can serve as a running track through the yard (at least at the south end), but the length issue is still there. The need for at least one more such track will become more urgent when the Oak Creek expansion is completed. The most sensible alternative would be to route more trains via the J--but will that be possible when CN runs the show or if the Great Wall of Barrington gets built? UP thought of a J routing, but that would mean major changes in labor agreements to permit one crew to take a train from Clinton to Waukegan (for example), or Pleasant Prairie to West Chicago.
Metra's reason for improving capacity is not strange. Someone looked at ticket-by-mail addresses and saw that BNSF service was reaching more deeply, closer, to UPW than the other way around. You don't think service disparities had something to do with that? I've suspected that for a long time and recommended expanding rush hour (and Heritage Corridor) service for years.
The crossing proposed for grade separation that you are missing is Broadway/19th Av. 5th Avenue is on the list. Add to that list 9th Av & 15th Av that also need to be done for the community.
Park does have a few more crossovers than HM did. On the other hand, CTC and bi-diectional signalling on all tracks has not made that much of an impact other than facilitate control from Omaha and probably upgrade reliability.
Interesting points you made about North Yard and Proviso generally. I just stumbled across the problem looking at CN & EJ&E yards around Chicago. Most yards of all the railroads are too short for today's trains. CNW seems to have sold its birthright with the industrial development around and on parts of the old yard.
John, I'm a transportation consultant living in Downers Grove (work here too) and sometimes TRAINS author (March 2007). The most recent "official" tabulation of train volumes, by type of service, in the Northeastern Illinois region was compiled and released by the Illinois Commerce Commission in July 2002. The report is titled, "Motorist Delay at Public Highway - Rail Grade Crossings in Northeastern Illinois". It was prepared by the Research & Analysis Section Transportation Division and is available on the ICC website.
Jim Giblin
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