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[quote user="oltmannd"][quote user="Safety Valve"] [quote user="Bucyrus"]Anybody that is selling a supply of something is going to limit that supply if he can get a higher price and make more money overall, even though he is selling less quantity.  If OPEC decided to double the price of oil, they might end up making less money overall than they are now because the higher price would reduce demand.  From our perspective, it may seem like OPEC has a gun to our heads, but you have to look at it from their perspective.  Nothing could be worse for them than to have all that oil and nobody wanting to buy it.  There is no conspiracy, just the beauty of supply and demand.[/quote]Which it is our duty as a Nation to unify and produce domestic vehicles running on fuels we control. Not Middle east, opec or anyone. If that means getting rid of gasoline and Desiel. So be it.Nothing will please me more than to see Iran, Saudi and all the rest sit in the sands on top of fuel that the USA wont need or use.If enough of USA, Europe gets off the oil imports OPEC will survey the oil wells and see them sitting still and not pumping very much if at all. THEN the supply will be overflowing and the costs will drop to 10 dollars a barrel. That is the very thing OPEC does not want.It's too bad because we have the Gulf, deep sea drilling, ANWAR etc.. but no one is sufficient backbone to stand up and actually make it happen.[/quote]I'm a bit confused.  Are you advocating energy independence on a permanent basis or temporary basis?We import (net) about half of the oil we consume.  That's a big target. Even if we drilled holes all over America, we'd never come close to making up the 1/2 we're now importing.  ANWAR is a drop in the bucket.  And, the cost to find and develop new sources or petroleum in the US would be greater than that for the foreign, imported oil.Conservation will only get you so far.  You can do all sorts of things to encourage conservation like high taxes on energy, higer CAFE stds. for cars, etc.  But these will really hammer the economy and only make a dent in consumption.You could tax/subsidize alternate sources of energy.  You can do coal liqification, oil shale, ethanol, etc., but these sources are expensive to develop and get into production and require a long term commitment in order to be a profitable venture.  That probably means some sort of gov't price support if you want to get them going right now.Now, suppose we do all that stuff and decide to live with $5 or $6/gallon cost equivalent for transportation fuels and 50% higher utility bills, plus much higher prices for food and goods (fertilizer and plasitcs) and the recession they will cause.   I think you're right, that world oil prices would tumble.  So, the rest of the world - China, India, etc. get $25/bbl oil while we're paying $100 for equivalent energy.  How do you think that would sit politically and economically?  I don't think you can gear up for energy independence as an "object lesson" for OPEC. It's a long term, high cost commitment.Why not do this instead:  Hold domestic supplies in reserve and use as much foreign oil while it is relatively cheap.  Tax consumption in order to get conservation efforts off the ground and use the tax revenue to support longer-term, large alternative energy projects where private investment is currently lacking because of risk.  When oil becomes expensive enough, a lot of alternatives - consevation methods and energy sources - become viable.  The trouble is that some of them are very capital intensive, are not "production hardened" and have long build-out lead times.  They require sustained high oil prices to attact private investment and development.  I think the proper roll of gov't is to smooth the way for these things to help reduce shocks to the economy and heartache for the citizens. [/quote]Im not just talking freedom, Im talking a total National refusal to market and use Oil to move our people from point A to point B. We should have enough oil to make our own medicines, plastics etc until new forms can be researched in the labs just like they did with tires in world war two to stop depending on pure Rubber Trees that were under Japenese Control.Yes, my idea which I advocate is a total stoppage of Gasoline as a motor fuel. We will have to build cars for everyone that runs on hybrid desiel or some other form like rechargeable electric. We will have to get serious about TGV type technology between Cities. We will have to use light rail, trolleys and monorails in our cities. We will have to build these into suburbs to about 30-40 miles radius. We will want a person to walk or bike to the station and get to work easily wherever that is WITHOUT need of a car.If they need a car, they will have one with sufficent range to travel 150 miles or a bit more on one fill of electricity or something something...Airports will have to continue to use JetFuel until they find something else.We would need a total national commitment on all levels and a sum of money worthy of the old Railroad Tycoon that once dreamed of a rail connection sea to sea.Imagine a United States and Europe that does not need mideast oil for a moment.
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