Could anyone offer info on the toughest (steepest, longest, etc) grade(s) on the old CB&Q? i.e. where was it, how steep, how long, etc.
I'm working on a project related to an old Q dynomometer car and this info would help a lot.
Thx much,
Stack
The Burlington Route Historical Society of which I used to be a member, would be a pretty good source of information. While it would be difficult for me to give you any specific answers, I do know that one of the Q's toughest grades was in the Black Hills of South Dakota between Edgemont and Deadwood. The Burlington would use two T-2 class 2-6-6-2 locomotives just to lug ten cars on that particular stretch of trackage between Edgemont and Deadwood.
Does anyone else out there have any further information for Stack??
CANADIANPACIFIC2816
...If you want to consider long distance rise in elevation....How about the old Sante Fe from Chicago and above stated it's at 700'....and when it reaches Flagstaff, Az., which is 7000'....I'd say that qualifies.
Realize that's not CB&Q, just a long RR grade....
Quentin
Ok Red Oak Hill on the Creston sub, Chariton,Ottumwa,Burlington and Kirkwood on the Ottumwa sub.Yates City on the Peoria line. The big hill right oout of Quincy on the Brookfield going back to Galesburg. Buda on the Mendota.I am sure some are in Missouri as well along the Brookfiled just I have never seen them.
Oh yeah Opehiem hill on the Barstow and Colona to just about Lynn as well.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
Thanks for the ideas.
I can't believe that I didn't think of the Deadwood-Lead-Dumont grade! I've biked up that beast on a mountain bike. I believe part of it was 13% (the Fantail loop portion.) I've seen photos of the T-2 doubleheaded up there. That whole 114 mile route down to Edgemont is a great bike trail (Mickleson Trail). Couple tunnels and just beautiful.
Would the Creston grade be on the route of the Zephyr? I recall the climb from Quincy westward being pretty steep.
Crawford Hill is another great idea - lots of heavy curvature there as well. Its been a few years since I've been there and I'm sure a lot has changed. Cool place to watch trains.
Edgemont to Deadwood line had a maximum grade of 2% ascending for northward trains, with 3% descending. The longest section of 3% was about 13 miles from Dumont (highest point on CB&Q) to the the switch to head into the gold mine yard at Lead, it did ease to about 2% for roughly 2000' at Englewood. Speed limit descending the 3% was 15 MPH.
If you had any doubts about your air or had an official riding, Englewood was a "Must" stop to recharge as you could normally hold the train there with the engine brakes.
The Hill City-Keystone branch (Black Hills Central) had 4% grades.
In the very early days of the Racetrack (late 1860s), the rails eastbound of downtown Hinsdale, Illinois dropped pretty severely toward swampy wetlands located where I-294 now resides, then back up again to the level where the Western Springs train station is today. (The current Highlands Station was built years later when the tracks were finally elevated on a fill across the valley.)
The steep grade in both directions is why a huge hobo camp was located on land just east of the tollway and north of the tracks. The double grades so close proximately allowed hobos to easily board trains heading in either direction because they slowed down to climb the tough grade.
Poppa_Zit wrote: In the very early days of the Racetrack (late 1860s), the rails eastbound of downtown Hinsdale, Illinois dropped pretty severely toward swampy wetlands located where I-294 now resides, then back up again to the level where the Western Springs train station is today. (The current Highlands Station was built years later when the tracks were finally elevated on a fill across the valley.)The steep grade in both directions is why a huge hobo camp was located on land just east of the tollway and north of the tracks. The double grades so close proximately allowed hobos to easily board trains heading in either direction because they slowed down to climb the tough grade.
Now THAT'S what I call an interesting piece of information...I did not know that even with the hundreds of times I have driven under the BNSF bridge crossing I-294 in that area...thanks PZ.
eolafan wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: In the very early days of the Racetrack (late 1860s), the rails eastbound of downtown Hinsdale, Illinois dropped pretty severely toward swampy wetlands located where I-294 now resides, then back up again to the level where the Western Springs train station is today. (The current Highlands Station was built years later when the tracks were finally elevated on a fill across the valley.)The steep grade in both directions is why a huge hobo camp was located on land just east of the tollway and north of the tracks. The double grades so close proximately allowed hobos to easily board trains heading in either direction because they slowed down to climb the tough grade. Now THAT'S what I call an interesting piece of information...I did not know that even with the hundreds of times I have driven under the BNSF bridge crossing I-294 in that area...thanks PZ.
Jim --
Did you know that the CB&Q lost a locomotive one night right about where I-294 goes under the Racetrack?
It happened when they were first building the Q along the new route in the early 1860s. There was an underground river that flowed from north to south beneath Spring Rock Park -- and it bubbled to the surface in the form of mineral springs (hence the park's name) that formed wetlands just east of where the tollroad lies today. There were also areas of "quicksand" -- fine sand and gravel suspended in water under pressure (liquefaction). The RR crews dumped some loose fill and gravel to mitigate the soft soil and then laid the track. They parked a work train locomotive near the spot late one day -- and when the crews returned the next morning, it was gone!
Well, sorta. It was still there, beneath a few feet of mud and peat that somehow eluded the crew that did the test borings. After it was dug out, they ended up dumping much more rock and gravel into the area to support the track and loads it carried. The "Spring Rock" dip in track grade was eliminated by raising the tracks above the tollroad onto a high fill, which happened prior to the mid-1950s, when they built the Tri-State Tollway. To elevate the first rails, they built a long trestle across the valley, then used bottom dump cars to dispense gravel below until it reached track level. This also how they raised the IHB tracks to fly over the Illinois Central tracks south of Roosevelt Road, the CGW and CA&E lines near Madison Street. That trestle was about 4 miles long, IIRC.
Because of the fairly steep grades coming up out of the low area, freight locomotives would naturally slow down entering and leaving both Hindale and Western Springs. Which provided the perfect scenario for hobos to hop on and off slowed trains heading in both directions. Thus, the area was littered with hobo shantys and had a degree of repute as one of the busiest hobo camps in the Midwest. The ready supply of sparkling fresh drinking water from the springs added to the desirable amenities.
The springs eventually dried up after the area became more built-up (made-man drainage) and the water table was lowered to where it is today.
PZ
rrboomer wrote: Edgemont to Deadwood line had a maximum grade of 2% ascending for northward trains, with 3% descending. The longest section of 3% was about 13 miles from Dumont (highest point on CB&Q) to the the switch to head into the gold mine yard at Lead, it did ease to about 2% for roughly 2000' at Englewood. Speed limit descending the 3% was 15 MPH.If you had any doubts about your air or had an official riding, Englewood was a "Must" stop to recharge as you could normally hold the train there with the engine brakes.The Hill City-Keystone branch (Black Hills Central) had 4% grades.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding wrote:That branch, the only remaining part of the Q in the northern Black Hills, is presentlu used by the 1880 train.
Poppa Zit-
I lived in Western Springs for 20+ years '45-'65, and had never heard that before. Thanks!
I live in San Diego now, but can remember the trains at night. And the "wheat rush" in the fall when the Q would break out and use the steam power. I was about 10 or so before the commuter line was complete diesel. I remember steam going into Chicago, but they were almost always diesels coming out.
My favorite spot to view trains was the old wooden bridge across the tracks near the Highlands station. I don't know if it's still there or not.
I haven't been back since '99.
John Grier
The Burlington brake tests were undertaken to determine the practicability of using power brakes on long and heavy freight trains. In the 1886 tests these were five competitors - three buffer-brakes, one compressed-air brake, and one vacuum-brake. The tests comprised stops with trains of twenty-five and fifty vehicles, at 20 and FIG. 3. - Rapid-acting Vacuum-Brake Valve.
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Brake_(object)
George Westinghouse had developed a series of air brakes for trains, each one an improvement over the one before it. The brakes for freight trains, however, were still unsatisfactory in 1886. In the summer of that year Westinghouse agreed to test his latest air brakes for freight trains on a hill in West Burlington, Iowa.
http://www.iptv.org/iowapathways/mypath.cfm?ounid=ob_000189
Were these air brake tests done on the grade at Burlington because it was the biggest operational headache for the CB&Q?
While the grade climbing away from the Mississippi River is pretty stiff, I would think that the proximity of West Burlington Shops was a bigger factor in choosing the location of the air brake tests.
The Edgemont to Deadwood line had a branch that was even worse, running to Spearfish. The line was very difficult and was abandoned after several washouts. They only used it about 20 years.
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
There's several links to other South Dakota rail videos on youtube too.
Al Krug lists 4 grades for the CB&Q on his "Major Railroad Grades" webpage of his "Railroad Facts and Figures" website, being Ulm Hill, Sheridan Hill, Parkman Hill, and Crawford Hill - for the details, see: http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/grades.htm
- Paul North.
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