PRR electrics in the east

[Supermicha]

Hi.

I know about the PRR electrified line between Washington and New York City. Now i heard about an electrified PRR route thru the apalachian mountains. can anyone tell me where this line was going to, when was it built and which trains rode on it? which company uses the route today? And which railroads ran electrics in the east? i just know PRR, NYC, NW and Virginian. Any else?

thanks, micha

[michaelstevens]

As far as I know PRR's electrification only got as far as Harrisburg, which is where (now Amtrak) ends today.
I've been to Altoona, Horseshoe Curve, Gallatin Tunnels etc. and read copiously (on PRR history) -- never finding any evidence of catenary poles etc. that far West.

[martin.knoepfel]

as far as I know, PRR ran freight and passenger trains to harrisburg under catenary. conrail preferred diesel engines.

[jchnhtfd]

At one time there was some discussion within PRR management (this was in the 30's) of extending the Harrisburg - New York electrification through the mountains. As far as I know, it never got beyond talking. Electrification is hideously expensive and it must be remembered that PRR had, in those days, a superb line of steam engines to run the show. Electrification did make sense on what is now called the northeast corridor, though -- at least in part because two pieces simply had to be electric (the Hudson tubes and Penn Station, and in Baltimore) and also because it was in many ways the best way to provide enough power to move very heavy trains. The P5s were good. There successors in passenger service, the great GG-1's, have in many people's opinions never been equaled.

[dehusman]

The Virginian ran electrified routes through the Appalachians. They were absorbed by the N&W. Their E33 engines were sold to the New Haven and Penn Central, and passed on to Conrail. So the engines ended up on the former PRR but that's about as close as the association went.

Dave H.

[daveklepper]

The Norfolk & Western had its own "Elkhorn Tunnel?" electrification, lasting through WWII and abandoned long before the merger with the Virginian that ended the Virginian electrification because of one-way each line routing. The B&O's Baltimore Camden Tunnel electrication, for both freight and passenger, lasted through WWII (third rail, dc), and the steam locomotives stayed on the trains. With freight operation, the PRR's electrication actually extended beyond Harrisburg to Enola Yard, similarly via the freight line south of Washington to Patomic Yard. The PRR also had a freight electrication, "The Port Road," largely single track for freight trains from Washington and Baltimore to Harrisburg. This lasted long enough for the modern E44 rectifier locomotives and the second hand ex Virginian, N&W, and New Haven E33's to be used on this line. The Reading electrication, based in Philadelphia, was never used for freight, only for commuter trains, and is in use and expanded as part of the SEPTA system, with the PRR commuter network as one through-routed system, today.

[Modelcar]

.....The posts above that states electrification got no further than Harrisburg are correct. And I concur the Pennsy did discuss electrification from Harrisburg west over the mountains but none of that was ever built.

I rode behind those GG-1's during World War II and pulling out of Harrisburg heading east after arriving via K4...was some difference. It pushed one back in the seat and kept you there until it reached it's speed [of roughly 90 mph] and you were on your smooth way. No more coal dirt on the windowsills either. It was great.

[eolafan]

I used to live in the Philadelphia area and michaelstevens is right, the PRR electrificaiton only went as far as Harrisburg, PA.

[joseph2]

East of the Mississippi were a few interurban electric railroads that also hauled freight.The Chicago,South Shore and South Bend had large "Little Joe" Electric locomotives.I think the Illinois Terminal and the Piedmont Northern had smaller electric freight locomotives.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

...The B&O's Baltimore Camden Tunnel electrication, for both freight and passenger, lasted through WWII (third rail, dc), and the steam locomotives stayed on the trains. ...

Wasn't it overhead line? The BB-NOS locos only ran the tunnel didnt they, heading the trains as to not congest the tunnel with smoke? And I know they had Pantographs or whatever on top, because I have seen models and photos. [?][?][?]

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The Camden Tunnel in Baltimore was third-rail DC for most of its life, although it was originally built in 1895 with a system that looked like a cross between catenary and overhead third rail.
Mini-pantographs on top of third-rail locomotives did exist on NYC and NH. Overhead third rail was installed over double slip switches in Grand Central Terminal and the Detroit River area to allow locomotives to bridge the gap in the third rail. I'm not sure of it but B&O may have had a similar arrangement in Baltimore after rebuilding to a more conventional third rail system.

[Anonymous]

(i just know PRR, NYC, NW and Virginian. Any else?)

There also was

New Haven
Boston and Maine
Boston, Revere Beach and Lynn (a 3 foot gauge line)
Long Island
Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal
Delaware Lackawanna and Western
Reading
Baltimore and Ohio
Cleveland Union Terminal (part of NYC)
Detroit Terminal (again part of NYC)
Detroit Toledo and Ironton
Canadian National

I know that I am forgetting some.

The N&W electrification has the distinction of being the only class 1 mainline electrification replaced by steam. There were a few electrified branch lines on other roads that also were replaced by steam, New Haven is one.

[dknelson]

The Great Northern and the Milwaukee Road also had electrified lines through the western mountains. Some of the Great Northern electrics were purchased by the PRR in the 1950s but their friction bearings could not stand the high speeds the PRR expected out of them.
Dave Nelson

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

One other electrification in the East would be the St. Clair Tunnel between Port Huron and Sarnia, in effect between CN and GTW.

Regarding the FF2's (ex-GN on PRR), because of the friction bearings, they were restricted to pusher duty outside of Philadelphia.

[Anonymous]

Your right! the overhead in Camden tunnel only lasted from 1894 to 1902. Boy they shot quite a few photos of the overhead line, like the one at http://www.northeast.railfan.net/classic/BnOdata6.html

[TH&B]

Most of that long list of electrified roads in the east were isolated relativaly short sections of electrification. The PRR was connected directly to the NH and still are. What was the RDG and DL&W are now directly connected to what was PRR. Overhead wire electification has also been extended on the Long Branch. PRR was/is connected to LIRR as 3rd rail. NH was/is conncted to NYC as 3rd rail, NH/NYC and LIRR 3rd rail are not conected or compatable but NH and LIRR was connected by overhead wires in Brooklyn. I think, but now I'm confused! Anyways add it all up and it is the largest network of electric railroads in the USA. Today only the passenger trains are electric, freights are always diesel .... exept maybe some work trains?

[daveklepper]

As an experiment, an FL-9 was run into Penn Station, with its NYC-type (now Metro North) 3rd rail shoes, and low and behold, it picked up power perfectly well on the LIRR third rail. This could be done today if tight tolerances are maintained on both systems' 3rd rails and the shoes. The New Haven did, of course, have a whole fleet of passenger electrics, including the rectiers, that had cam-operated "convertable" 3rd rail shoes, that could pick up power on the NYC third rail, and at least not damage the LIRR third rail. The LIRR third rail is very close the B-Division (BMT and IND) subway standard, and subway equipment has often been tested on the LIRR to determine high speed characteristics. The first mass production stainless steel NY subway cars, the Budd R-32's, still running, made demonstration trips from GCT to Mott Haven on the NYC (about 1963?), but the subway 3rd rail shoes were replaced with NYC-types for these demonstration runs. This was Budd's first rapid transit order after the single experimental BMT multi (single articulated car) of 1934. Also, the B&M did have the Hoosack Tunnel electrification until the Troy - Boston line was dieselized, and like the B&O, the steam locomotives remained on the trains. Was not the B&O electrification the very first North American (possibly World) MAIN LINE electrification?
The LIRR and the NY subways were connected in various ways and at various times. Up to WWI there was through service in the summer provided by alternating gate elevated cars (composite convertables) and steel "Gibbs cars", the original LIRR shorty mu cars, from Manhattan over the Williamsburg Bridge and the Broadway Brooklyn Elevated (Today's "J" Line), to a ramp down to join the LIRR surface line, then 4 tracks on Atlantic Avenue, now a 2-track subway below, and then out the Rockaway branch to Rockaway Park, the line taken over later by the subway. This was an all third rail operation, but at that time the service started, the el structure had the close-in higher elevated third rail, so the shoes must have been the same kind of compromise that the IRT used in similar circumstances or something similar. Also, there was the connection between the Bay Ridge freight line and the MacDonald Avenue trolley line. The 11000V AC wire stopped at one span, with a hanging sign "AC MOTORS STOP HERE" and about four feet further on the ramping connecting curve was the almost symmetrical end of the 600V DC wire with the sign "DC MOTERS STO HERE". I was present when some R10 postwar subway cars were delivered over this connection. The LIRR used a diesel to pu***he cars up the ramp, with an idler flat having the appropriate couplers between the diesel and the subway train. If I remember, the subway's freight affiliate, the South Brooklyn Railway, used a trolley pole and third rail steeple cab, much like the one in the photo of a fan trip on the "J" line (possibly the same locomotive), with the Triplex D types in a recent issue, to pull the cars down to Coney Island Shops, and if my memory is correct I was able to hitch a ride. A regular PCC car caught up to us. At that time there were still freight sidings along MacDonald Avenue, and even on off the depressed 4-track Sea Beach Line. This last siding also had trolley wire on the freight siding, even the the Sea Beach Line (now the "N" line) was 3rd rail. Seeing a South Brooklyn freight motor hauling a stirng of freight cars in the streets of Brooklyn was the nearest a NY teenager could get to a genuine midwestern interurban! Rumor has it and drawings show a connection between the IRT and the LIRR at Atlantic and Flatbush Avenue, the Brooklyn LIRR terminal, and I believe the roadbed still exists. This was so August Belmont could ride out to his estates on Long Island in his private subway car, the Mineola, now in restorable condition at the Branford Electric Railway Association's Shore Line Trolley Museum, also the posessor of a trolley freigt locomotive. www.bera.org The East Troy trolley museum provides regular freight service to on-line customers with a trolley freight locomotive. About a third of the new USA light rail lines have some sort of common carier diesel freight operations on a portion of their lines when passenger service is not running. Dave

[Anonymous]

I'll add a couple of electrified railroads to the list.

There was the Piedmont and Northern, with one segment in North Carolina and another segment in South Carolina. I think the railroad dieselized in the 1950's. It was absorbed into the Seaboard Coast Line in 1968 and is now part of CSX.

There were electrified interurbans and transit as well.

The Hagerstown and Frederick was a trolley line in Maryland that went through The Blue Ridge in Thurmont.

The Washington, Baltimore and Annapolis went exactly where its name said it did.

[UPTRAIN]

The NH had some electrified lines in Massachusetts I think......like around Boston.