Layouts and layout building

Driline wrote:

SpaceMouse wrote: I recently designed a layout that utilizes a gate/lift-out, but in my applications it should be more like saloon doors that swing both ways. My staging is in another room and with 10 trains running in a session that means going through the gate often. To me it is not a matter of building a gate to tolerances, it's keeping the gate within tolerances. I've found that with any swinging gate/ door, the weakest link is the screw to wood connection. Just a slight give, and the hinge slips a little in the counter-sink hole and the gate drops a little. Now I'm theorizing because I haven't actually built one. The problem is not on the far side of the gate from the hinge. Because you can build a "ramp" that guides the gate into position. But the hinge side doesn't have those safeguards. So a 1/32" drop in height and pull to the side can be a problem. Naturally, the less the gate is used, the less chance this will occur. But like I said, I see my gate getting a lot of use. Thoughts? Space mouse, you hit the screw on the wood there with that one! I've got a swing gate that swings up and down and I do have problems with the hinged side screws moving around within the plywood. I'm thinking of just scrapping it and going with a duckunder.

You might be able to find threaded steel inserts for the plywood with a toothed flange that would be driven into the plywood; the screws would be machine screws mated to the inserts.  Check the millwork hardware section of your local suppliers (or a fastener specialty source).

Dante

 

Ryan...May I suggest that you might consider using door hinges instead of the 5 inche hinge as on your fine print. Door hinges are suprisinly cheap, bullet proof, great holding power (using 2/4 on both sides)and most importent a very tight pin tolerence.I would not glue any screws as you might want to raise it months or years later to elevate the track higher. Also check the slop in a 3/8 drop dead bolt as per your drawing, this should be a positive no slack latch, a large hadware store has a great selection, a sloppy latch causes derails. Another suggestion when mounting it, be sure both sides as well as the door is on the same plane on both sides past the door. You can also build it on an incline if you need a higher elevation on down the line. Perhaps if you have a miter saw, you could use 1/3 for the diaginal end support brace, makeimg it light on the open end and strong.. These are only my suggestions of course, and most of all... enjoy....John

I used the trackbed and terrain to gain height, and kept the latches and hinges at the same height on opposite sides of my operating pit.  As you can see, the curved loop begins of the far lower main, in the background, and descends to the yard at left.  In order to maintain grade, I had to build the terrain and slope the combo bridge kit to make it work.  I opted for simplicity.

For those of yoou trying to get a screw to anchor into the edge of plywood you have a real problem: IT CAINT BE DONE.

But it is done by cabinet makers every day.

1)  Drill a hole in the surface of the plywood;

2)  Glue in a short length of dowel (same size as the hole you drilled in step #1);

3) Sand Dowel flush with the surface of the plywood, and;

4) Drill into the edge of the plywood and into the dowel

You now have a solid piece of wood to anchor your hinge screws into.

 

  To avoid "hinge droope", look at the construction of a typical room door entrance.  The typical door frame construction is at least a 4 x 6 inches.  There has been many discussions about unsupported plywood sheets sagging.  This is because even 3/4'' plywood eventually gives under its own weight.  The door frame is thick enough to resist deflection on its' own and then is anchored into the floor and rest of the structure for good measure.  

Also, you look at good quality kit-built furniture, (Sauder, for instance) you will see that the hinges usually have slots in them to adjust the door hights.  It is frequently necessary to readjust these doors after they have been in use fro a while.  This usually occurs for two reasons:  The furniture may expand or contact from the humidity level in the room and; Many materials are not completely elastic but will plasticly deform slightly over a period of time under a sustained load.   Bolts and screws can relax slightly after a while and may require retightening after a while.  This is why automobile valve cover leaks can frequently be stopped by simply retightening the bolts holding the valve covers down.

Similarly, the door hinges on the swing gate may require periodic realigning due to the relaxation of the bolts holding them in place. This is why it does not pay to scrimp on the number of bolts or hinges used (three hinges would be better than two because you have 50% more bolts or screws supporting the load. 

 

Zandoz wrote:

Instead of traditional hinges, think pivot points...like the stationary pivot point of a bi-fold door.  The better bi-fold door pivots are adjustable both horizontally and vertically, and the weight of the door/gate sits on the pivot point, rather than outside of it increasing the lever effect of the weight of the gate.  Instead of building a gate from scratch, cut down a hollow core door, and fasten a flat deck to the top edge of it. <shrug>

Zandoz,

I have installed many bi-fold doors in our previous house we had renovated and I know exactly what you mean by the pivots. Typically doors have what is known as "lock prep", or holes and pockets machined in side stiles to accommodate latch and hinge hardware.  And this leads to your other suggestion of using a cut down hollow core door. Now that is an interesting point. I had half a dozen old hollow core doors that I gave away a few years ago after I replaced them with the bi-fold doors, wish I had one of them today to try out your idea.

jwar wrote:

Ryan...May I suggest that you might consider using door hinges instead of the 5 inche hinge as on your fine print. Also check the slop in a 3/8 drop dead bolt as per your drawing, this should be a positive no slack latch, a large hadware store has a great selection, a sloppy latch causes derails.

John,

Now door hinges might be a good idea too, and this is a continuing thought on what Zandoz's point. Thanks for the tip on the dead bolt!

R. T. POTEET wrote:

For those of yoou trying to get a screw to anchor into the edge of plywood you have a real problem: IT CAINT BE DONE. But it is done by cabinet makers every day. 1)  Drill a hole in the surface of the plywood; 2)  Glue in a short length of dowel (same size as the hole you drilled in step #1); 3) Sand Dowel flush with the surface of the plywood, and; 4) Drill into the edge of the plywood and into the dowel You now have a solid piece of wood to anchor your hinge screws into.

RT,

I had not planned on anchoring the hinges to the edge of the plywood, but to the sides. But thanks anyway for the cabinet makers answer to plywood edge anchoring. That tip could be useful for me someday, so I'll keep it in my back pocket just in case!

Leon Silverman wrote:

To avoid "hinge droope", look at the construction of a typical room door entrance.  The typical door frame construction is at least a 4 x 6 inches.  There has been many discussions about unsupported plywood sheets sagging.  This is because even 3/4'' plywood eventually gives under its own weight.  The door frame is thick enough to resist deflection on its' own and then is anchored into the floor and rest of the structure for good measure.   Also, you look at good quality kit-built furniture, (Sauder, for instance) you will see that the hinges usually have slots in them to adjust the door hights.  It is frequently necessary to readjust these doors after they have been in use fro a while.  This usually occurs for two reasons:  The furniture may expand or contact from the humidity level in the room and; Many materials are not completely elastic but will plasticly deform slightly over a period of time under a sustained load.   Bolts and screws can relax slightly after a while and may require retightening after a while.  This is why automobile valve cover leaks can frequently be stopped by simply retightening the bolts holding the valve covers down.

Leon,

We have some cabinets with the adjustable hinges and I have seen those available at the local supplier too. Thanks for the interesting idea for the application of those hinges on the swing gate.

here are some pics of my swing gate done a year ago. I did have to install a dehumidifier last summer to stop excessive swelling, but it does work with a little maintainence. The diagonal link allows the wye to be realigned as needed as it is cantilevered out there. The rest is pretty secure so far. I used regular steel plated door hinges and 2x4 framing, 3/4 dimensional lumber for the lower line and 1/4" ply and 2" foam on top. All white glued and screwed together. The hinges are held on with coated #10 deckmate screws and seem to not have moved since installation.

hope this helps. J.R.

That's quite a swing gate you got there JR, thanks for sharing it with us!

SpaceMouse wrote:

SilverSpike wrote: I agree that would be the most likely point of failure for the swing gate. In my plan I hope to compenste for this factor and I will be using a 2X4 for the hinges base side and the other side of the hinge will be attached through the plywood and into another 2X4 that is built into the gate portion. Using the 1 1/2" #10 flat head wood screws to attach them as well. This would be a similar situation to wood doors attached to wood door frame construction.  At the risk of redundancy, I would suggest using recessed head machines screws through the plywood and the base rather than wood screws into 2 x 4. For one thing, the 2 x4 wood will shrink as it drys. For another, the weight of the 2 x 4 will increase the weight of the gate dramatically. That semi circle swing out is a work of art.

One of the biggest problems w/ standard door hindges is not necesarilly the mounting but the slop im the pin. Even a new 3 1/2 or 4x4 door hindge may feel tight but in a short time will loosen up. A better hindge would be a commercial bearing hindge. They are not cheap but stand up to thousands of openings.

A piano hindge mounted on the triangular brace is the most durable but also the hardest to initially align.

If your mounting area is giving you problems w/ loose or stripping out screws, try to incorporate some type of hardwood at the mount. Maple, poplar or birch will hold screws forever if installed in a sized pilot hole.

If your doing a swing gate, set the closure end at a slight angle. This wat you can have a tighter fit in the closed position and have clearance for the heal when opening.[ why doors are beveled].  Adjustments to stops and alignment can be accomplished with screw heads either wood or machine.

That's a good point about the sloppy hinges. mine are used only to set the height when closed and the barrel stay on the right of the shelf sets outer height and and alignment. I also used a pin on the rail to add a posittive stop for the upper track as a back up. J.R.

That is the advantage of a swing-down.  The hinges are presumably fixed well and securely, but the real anchors for alignment in both azimuth and altitude are the barrel locks at the rising end.

I agree about piloting holes.  It takes more time, but it is the cheapest insurance you can ever get against split members that you had counted on for strength.  If sized just a bit small for the shank on your screw, it should do a superior job of keeping its grip over time.  If you are a bit concerned about it still, fashion a metal L-bracket, drill holes, and screw it to the side of the fame member on which your hinges rest.  Do it in such a way that the bottom part of the L lies hard against your hinge.  You should never have to lose an hour's sleep again.

Would using a piano hinge curtail the hinge's wiggle-room as a more solid possibility?

In my opinion, yes, it could create some difficulty in getting the moving end set in whatever it needs to be fixed.  In my case, the twin brass hinges offer perhaps 1/8" of lateral play if I want it, and that is at the opposite end of the span some 46" away.  It turns out I don't need it...but that is another issue.  Remember, mine is a swing-down.

For a gate moving in azimuth, probably not nearly as much.  If the far latch or fastener is situated correctly at the first, then the piano hinge should be that much more reliable in getting the bolt or whatever to the right location in height.

A different idea...

One thing I like about a swing gate is that when the gate is opened the track end going into the void at the hinge end can be closed off automatically.

I wish I could post a sketch as it would be a lot easier... but...

What you need is a bar extending at right angles from the face of the hinge side of the gate very close to the hinge. This bar then turns back parallel to the track in the direction of the hinge.  When the gate swings open this bar then swings across the track and stops things rolling off on that side of the gap.

Hope this makes sense.

selector wrote:

In my opinion, yes, it could create some difficulty in getting the moving end set in whatever it needs to be fixed.  In my case, the twin brass hinges offer perhaps 1/8" of lateral play if I want it, and that is at the opposite end of the span some 46" away.  It turns out I don't need it...but that is another issue.  Remember, mine is a swing-down. For a gate moving in azimuth, probably not nearly as much.  If the far latch or fastener is situated correctly at the first, then the piano hinge should be that much more reliable in getting the bolt or whatever to the right location in height.

To also add to Selector's comments at the latching point.

Remember that you are spanning 2 separate sections of benchwork. Any movement, however slight, in any direction, can cause a major misalignment.  We have been talking more about making the hindging portion bullet proof. It may be necessary to incorporate some type of alignment method to always position the closed end exact even if the benchwork has swelled, shrunk or overwise shifted.

I would recommend not only angling the closure point as some have showed, but fabricating a tapered locating dowel/ pin. The tapered dowel will engage and pull/push the benchwork even slight to find it's proper alignment before latching.

At certain times when humidity conditions are at a norm the gate may work fine, but this is a bit of insurance for the off times when you could have problems.

As a carpenter, as I build a cabinet or hang a door, I always try to eliminate any future problems from normal and even abnormal abuse. "Doors always have to get the Mad Wife or kid test by slamming it shut a few times"