Toy train operating and collecting

I'm starting to get a little worried about our hobby.  I know this has been discussed a lot recently, but I'm going to beat this horse a little more and see if anyone out there has any ideas for changes to get "youngsters", maybe 30 & under, more involved.

I went to an event recently where the local HO club had set up in a childrens museum.  This was a great location, but I was left wondering what they were trying to accomplish.  There were 6 or 7 people there running trains, but they were so tied up setting up consists, fixing derailments, working on engines, adjusting couplers, etc., that the kids that were there to see trains (and I believe hopefully run trains) were being totally ignored.  A steamer pulling 50 hoppers is an impressive sight, but the kids were blowing right by looking for something they could do.  The clubs layout looked great, but it seems like a 20' x 20' with multiple loops of track with seperate controls and some "expendable" rolling stock that the kids could run would have been a lot more effective at getting them interested in trains. 

One thing funny about trains, it seems like the hobby is passed from son to father as often as father to son, and at this event the kids (and by extension, their 20 to 30 something parents) had better things to do.

Does anyone else out there see this happening?  We seem to be lousy ambassadors.

Tim

 

Well I will admit that sometimes when I look in Model Railraoder, I think of how old the modellers are. But then I remember that building such layouts require years of work and spending merate to small amounts of money at a time.

twaldie wrote:

We seem to be lousy ambassadors.

BINGO!  You gotta put the kids hands on the controls.

My opinion:

Almost all kids--boys and girls alike--enjoy trains, both real and toy, when they are youngsters.  They read about them at an early age ("Little Engine that Could," see them on TV or via videos (Thomas & Friends), and are somewhat in awe at seeing the "real thing."

Almost all kids--once they reach their teen years--find other interests that compete for, and hold, their attention.  It has always been this way, and no amount of indoctrination or persuasion is going to change that, nor should it.  Individuals have to find their own paths, and discover for themselves where their interests lie at that point in their development.

Almost all kids--once they leave childhood and the teen years behind--are very involved with actually setting their path in life via college, careers, marriage, and families, and most really have little time for trains or just about any other creative pastime.

Some "kids"--once they approach the mid-point of their lives and have otherwise settled into their chosen lifestyle--will seek to establish involvement in some leisure pastime they may have discovered in those intervening years, and some will seek such a pastime for nostalgic reasons.  That pastime--hobby, if you will--may involve toy trains or it may involve something else.

In short:  Why fret and worry about it?  Some folks will always be drawn to this hobby (albeit in fewer numbers than those of us who were around when railroads were king), and the hobby itself, in its various facets, will be around for far beyond the lifespan of anyone reading this.  And the hobby industry itself will continue to adjust and adapt to these demographic changes.

My guess is that the model railroading hobby as a whole experienced what history will record as its greatest boom period in the decade of the 90s and through the turn of the century--again, thanks largely to the war babies and postwar boomer generation.  Nothing can ever replace that.  Hopefully, all here, despite their passions for this hobby, are astute enough to recognize that simple fact.

So what the hobby industry has to do is retrench with some out-of-the-box thinking to keep itself afloat and profitable, and what we hobbyists have to do is contribute in our own way, as individuals, to demonstrate the many attractive features of this hobby to others whenever we have the opportunity.  That doesn't assure growth in raw numbers of participants, but what it does do is help to assure a continued level of exposure which may lead to new participation.

The industry itself is already seeing the effects of the boom bubble gradually deflating.  K-Line is gone, as is Industrial Rails, New Marx, and others (some of which are reappearing in leaner form); Marklin, the oldest and largest producer of model trains, experienced financial difficulties and was sold to another enterprise; LGB announced a day or so ago that it is turning over the reigns of LGB of America to another group; small dealers around the nation are closing their doors; national club membership in all scales is on the decline; and so on and so forth.  It sure doesn't take a crystal ball to see what is happening.

My recommendations to hobbyists and the industry:

1.  Expose the hobby to those who show some level of interest at every possible opportunity.

2.  Get back to devoting more attention to the nostalgia tie that long perpetuated interest in this hobby.  It all starts, for most at least, with that train circling the family Christmas tree--a tradition that survives to this day.  The kids of today will (as most of us did) remember those traditions, and the people involved with them, long after we're all gone, and it's entirely likely that a number of them will be drawn to not only reliving the tradition with a train set of their own during the holiday period, but will eventually be drawn to the possibility of doing even more with that train set, or expanding on a rekindled interest in the history and grandeur of railroading in its various facets.

I think Allan makes some really valid points and his advice to not worry about is right on.

As far as the original post goes.... hey, no offense to HOers but those trains even bore me. HO guys are generally scale and rivet obsessed and that's just not for kids. Yes, kids need to be able to control trains but you need more interaction. O gauge offers accessories and as JLC knew, it's really the key to having fun.

   I get bored running O guage train myself after awhile. That's why I put on a chockful of postwar and some modern era accessories on my two 4x8 sheet layout. My ongoing layout is not protoypical. Sure I have a sort of industrial area and a town kind of area, but that's about as real as it gets. I mix accessories and don't care if an 8ft tall 1045 Watchman is near a scale figure.

   I don't have all my accessories wired up yet, but my two nephews keeps asking me when. I have to get to it because even my wife likes them. She was a little disappointed at the famous Choo Choo Barn layout we visited this summer. After we left she asked me,  " where are the postwar accessories"

Mike S

The new technology in this hobby is very expensive.  I've always had a passion for O gauge, but the expense has always been a hell of a hurdle.  Locally, the rare postwar stuff I paid top dollar for depreciates more each day as sadly, my friends in the hobby pass on thus causing decreased demand thus causing market saturation.  There are older Lionel sets that won't sell locally at $300, but will move on ebay to the Western states or foreign markets for $1500.  In short, I think the stuff that would "wow" the kids is way too expensive, and the older classics can't compete with the bells and whistles of the new techno toys kids have come to expect.  They have a very narrow attention span.  For less than the price of one engine, kids can buy complete systems for R/C cars and off road vehicles and any yard, beach, or field becomes their layout.  It seems interest in Thomas the engine is starting to wane.  It's going to be quite a challenge to keep kids intersested in our memories.

Rich F.

Exposure!  That's the key word.  Every Christmas I take my layout to school, 5 X 12 made up of  three 5 X 4 modules.  We bring the elementary kids to the high school auditorium where it is set up.  They love it!  They don't get to run the train, but they see the action from a short distance and really have a great time.  The only complaint I get is from parents, "Where can I find a train set before Christmas and how much will it cost???  Starter sets are the key to the hobbies future.  Starter sets need to be made in contemporary road names.  Even if it is steam, decorate it for the BNSF or what ever.  Kids at a very early age begin to recognize what they see and identify with it.  I have kids and they have their friends at the house and sometimes when I am there I run it for them, let them take some controls.  They switch, operate the automatic cars, and control the throttle.  I always tell them where trains are available and have made some converts.  I have been doing this since 1996!  One of my former students has a lot more stuff then I have and is really into command control.  I have gotten some stores to use toy trains in windows or as displays inside the store.  Usually they like the garden type trains, but the that's not important.  What is important is preserving a hobby that can be enjoyed by everyone.  It is a hobby that grows and when you build a layout, it is your little world.  Mine is a fall Montana afternoon in the 1950's.  There is snow in the mountains, but none in the valley yet.  It is probably the last day to have the top down in a convertable and drag main. Christmas is not that far away.  I love my trains! 

I think everyone should panic, and sell me their trains real cheap.

 

 

 

Look model trains are just like any other hobby, you can talk and promote all you want, but it takes actually trying it.

I can tell you that I am 23 and I have been in this hobby since I have been 10. It took my dad giving me his old Lionel trains (now priceless) to get me hooked. Lionel should hire a guy like me! I'll tell them what to do!

twaldie wrote:

I'm starting to get a little worried about our hobby.  I know this has been discussed a lot recently, but I'm going to beat this horse a little more and see if anyone out there has any ideas for changes to get "youngsters", maybe 30 & under, more involved. ... Does anyone else out there see this happening?  We seem to be lousy ambassadors.

OK I'll bite...

In 1953 Lionel did $33M in sales. US population was around 160M. I don't know how many sets they produced off hand but they had a pretty darn impressive market penetration at the time.

2006 - care to guess what they'd need to do in sales to rival 1953? About 250M give or take a few depending upon the inflation or index calculator your subscribe to.

Today's population? About 300M.

I'll hazard a hunch that compared to the 1953 population penetration Lionel is waaaaaay off that mark.

Going out and doing a public display can be a lot of fun and gratifying but I don't think it will ever make a difference in what has perhaps already become a niche hobby segment with other hobbies such as RC even surpassing it. Regardless of what is really happening or what we may perceive is happening I know I'll still enjoy it.

My $0.02

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the toy train industry is in a lean period. Even CTT issues are getting thinner. But I think most hobbies on the whole are experiencing similar downward trends. Watching tv or playing video games is what we do now in our spare time.

Kids do love trains, and all one needs to do is slap a starter set together to get a child's attention. Kids don't need or even want all the fancy high dollar sounds and gizmos on toy trains. They are perfectly happy with a whistle that they can blow at will.

The unfortunate thing is that not enough people realize this. Toy trains are still marketed to adults who are already in the hobby. To promote growth, they should be marketed to children. And these clubs that set up layouts at train shows are also missing the point. What kid wants to see a 50 car coal train crawl around a table at a slow scale speed? NONE! They want speed, colorful cars, action. Those so-called embassadors are doing more to alienate kids that to attract them.

Low-cost starter sets advertised to children would be a great idea. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

Jim

Jerry Calabrese had an interesting interview in another magazine where he highlighted these very issues - how selling to the already-converted hobbyists is less a way to grow (for Lionel, not the hobby in general) than tying train sets to collectible or more visible markets that tie directly in with the current culture.  I'm with Allen though - and he said much more eruditely than I ever could: don't worry and work with adults

I have a host of kids who like to visit the layout and run the trains. Invariably, they go on to other things. My teens are uninterested now - into teen things - and dozens of their friends regularly loll around the basement near the layout without noticing it. That's not to say my personal experience is scaleable or any more valid than others but I've personally had greater success with befriending fellow grown-ups. Inviting them down to run some trains; agreeing to help them buy a train set (very difficult to do locally) for Christmas or poke around in their attics looking for old trains.

I'll tell you one big learning though - visitors to my years-ago N scale layout thought it (and by extension I) was weird - it was so tiny, so detailed, etc. Visitors to my O gauge layout - with lights, sounds, moving items, and a quicker ability to take a throttle without knowing or caring about railroad practice -- just exclaim how fun and impressive it all is. This says more about me than the hobby, but I'm fairly young and much more "public" around my acquaintances about it than I was when I was more involved in the smaller scales - and with peers or slightly older folks, the name Lionel still resonates.

Yes gang, but with all due respect, Allen's comment of working with the adults bodes poorly for the future of the hobby, and is in fact exactly what the train makers have been doing already for the past decade.

In his OGR interview, Calabreese admitted that Lionel to some degree has already dropped the ball. Some of the effort needed now should have been done years ago. Not that efforts haven't been made. Lionel is still the most recognized name of the lot so in the case of promoting the hobby, the bulk of the responsibility falls upon Lionel, should they choose to make that effort.

But there are some conflicting thoughts in Calabreese's interview. On one hand he talks about Lionel's perceived value and how happy he was that one department store chain was able to sellout of Lionel sets at full list. On the other hand, the top ten Lionel dealers are all mail order venues that offer deep discounts and blowouts as available. So in other words, as much as Lionel would like to sell products at full price, the reality is the consumer wants discounts. And the established train hobbiest demands discounts, knows where to find them, and sometimes will not buy at all without.

The point above about R/C cars opens some thoughts. Much comment has been made how Lionel needs to advertise, yet R/C cars do not advertise. Granted, quality levels between the two hobbies are not necessarily compriable, but R/C cars are for sale nearly everywhere especially during the holiday buying season. Lionel trains are not. R/C cars are made in replicas of contemporary, current vehicle types, not 1955 Ford Sedans. Lionel trains on the other hand are still stuck in 1955 when it comes to starter product types and road name offerings.

At this point I have to give MTH some credit for at least trying. They don't have the Lionel name or the level of sales that Lionel has. Yet Mike has offered high quality starter sets with some modern diesel types and in modern roads. The former Railking SD45 and SD90MAC should have been done by Lionel a decade ago. I think Lionel would have seen more results from the effort that MTH did. Most folks looking to buy a starter set are looking for Lionel. And while MTH offered a high quality set, they were on the more expensive side, and came with scant little more than a circle of track - which in my opinion (and others) hurt their sales.

Take a gander over on the other forum and you so often see threads on "we want this" or "why don't they make this and make it now" or what will be in the next catalog when the current catalog isn't even out yet. The adult train buying public has become something of a spolied rotten Frankenstein monster with the "me me me me" attitude: we want THIS, we want it NOW, and after we said we wanted it, we won't buy it until it becomes a blowout. I'd rather talk about trains with kids who are expected to act like children, not grown adults who act like children.

And I have very little sympathy for those who cry about the loss of K-Line. They wanted the scale stuff, but waited for the blowouts to buy it, when K-Line products were already competitively prices as compare to MTH and Lionel. For as supposedly smart and educated as one might think many adult train buyers are, they sure don't have a clue when it comes to figuring out how much it costs to tool up all these new products - and pricing them at a point where the companies can stay in business. Yep, they got their K-Line Hudson or Mikado at a blowout, and in the process lost K-Line.

This is a niche hobby and yet today's adult buyers fully expect every catalog to contain gobs of newly tooled and developed products. And the train makers up to this point have been absolutely dumb enough to go along like lemmings off a cliff.

Which brings me to the lawsuit, which when the final ruling comes down in December or Janurary could really change everything. I wonder if Wellspring will really swallow the $42M judgement should Lionel lose. They already fired a load of higher level folks, many of whom probably had little to do with the circumstances that led to the suit. And though little has been said on this, it's my opinion that MTH is also in tight monetary straits. I think they desparately need the win and are counting on the award money. MTH has put far too much into tooling given the amount of sales they have. Lionel gets the Lionel's share of the $100M estimated annual sales of the 3-rail hobby. The rest gets split between EVERYONE else. MTH has invested far more in tooling and dies than Lionel has, and yet doesn't do the annual sales Lionel does. I wouldn't doubt for a moment that Mike isn't getting financial help from someone or some party of investors out there.

So whatever the state of the hobby now, it will could change again dramatically in a few months. Regardless of that, it is still up to Lionel to take the lead in growing the hobby. Lionel has the name and they need to make the effort. But they also need to stop charging people for the name and worrying about collectibles: the market determines what becomes collectible, not the manufacturer. And then there's technology - it may be wonderful but there comes a point where it also isn't affordable. Neil Young can talk all he wants about what a wonderful "family" hobby the trains are, and how the new technology enhances the realism. But the reality is that folks who see the current Lionel catalogs realize this is an adult hobby, not a family hobby.

Technology is wonderful, but it has to be affordable for families... and right now it simply isn't. I highly doubt the typical farm family advocated for in the Farm Aid Concerts has the discretionary income to participate in this "family" hobby, at least from a technology standpoint. I consider myself an offical spokeman when it comes to the topic of disposable family income and this hobby, and I have zero interest in chuff rates, rivet counts, headlight placement or Cherry Vanilla flavored TMCC. Why bother drooling over something I can't afford? Fortunately, I'm resourceful enough and creative enough to still participate in the hobby.

I could only wish that RMT had the name awareness that Lionel has. Then I would say the future is looking good for the train hobby.

Pennsylvania is the state where I enjoy my hobby!