Electronics and DCC

rockythegoat wrote:

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate I'd like to see some postings of what evaluation criteria people would like to see that weren't in the MR review. That would give me an idea of how to start making the list. I agree that the details ought to be worked out offline via email, then the "draft" posted here for comment and review. 3. Difference in decoder models / capabilities. 4. What decoders are available as "drop ins / plug ins" and for which models.

Remember that decoders are system independent.  This could be a whole seperate subject matter as there are so many drop-in/plug-in models available and so many decoder models and capabilities. 

Tom

tschwarz wrote:

jfugate wrote: Greg: EasyDCC remains firm that command-station consists offer a lot, so they keep enhancing command station consisting with new features with each system upgrade. My only criticism is EasyDCC also considers decoder-based consisting to be fraught with problems so they have hobbled their system's ability to manage decoder-based consists. This mindset once made sense -- but as you say, most decoders on the market now fully support decoder consisting, function mapping to consist addresses, etc. So EasyDCC's bias has become more of an narrow-minded anachronism. They need to wake up and realize decoder-based consists now offer a lot as well -- and quit hobbling their system's support of decoder-based consisting so much. Fortunately, you can circumvent most of this by simply programming CV19 directly yourself, which is quite easy to do via DecoderPro. Since EasyDCC's support of command station consisting is so rich, I'm still a pretty happy camper as to my choice of DCC system. Joe,  The latest upgrade to the software for the EasyDCC system says that Advanced Consists are the preferred method for creating multi-unit locomotive consists so I am not sure were you are getting this idea that they don't like doing advanced consists unless you are still using the old software.  How are you implying that they have "hobbled" their system support of decoder-based consisting.  I would refer you to pages 66-73 in their new system documentation that talks all about the Advanced Consisting that they offer. Just my humble $.02 worth. Tom

Bear in mind that the post you quoted was written in November, 2005!

Vail and Southwestern RR wrote:

tschwarz wrote:  jfugate wrote: Greg: EasyDCC remains firm that command-station consists offer a lot, so they keep enhancing command station consisting with new features with each system upgrade. My only criticism is EasyDCC also considers decoder-based consisting to be fraught with problems so they have hobbled their system's ability to manage decoder-based consists. This mindset once made sense -- but as you say, most decoders on the market now fully support decoder consisting, function mapping to consist addresses, etc. So EasyDCC's bias has become more of an narrow-minded anachronism. They need to wake up and realize decoder-based consists now offer a lot as well -- and quit hobbling their system's support of decoder-based consisting so much. Fortunately, you can circumvent most of this by simply programming CV19 directly yourself, which is quite easy to do via DecoderPro. Since EasyDCC's support of command station consisting is so rich, I'm still a pretty happy camper as to my choice of DCC system. Joe,  The latest upgrade to the software for the EasyDCC system says that Advanced Consists are the preferred method for creating multi-unit locomotive consists so I am not sure were you are getting this idea that they don't like doing advanced consists unless you are still using the old software.  How are you implying that they have "hobbled" their system support of decoder-based consisting.  I would refer you to pages 66-73 in their new system documentation that talks all about the Advanced Consisting that they offer. Just my humble $.02 worth. Tom Bear in mind that the post you quoted was written in November, 2005!

Yes, EasyDCC has realized their stance on decoder consisting was dated and have reversed their position in their manual and latest firmware upgrade (released in the spring of 2007) to now "bless" decoder consisting as the recommended approach.

However, EasyDCC uses 1-99 for decoder consist numbers, unlike NCE which uses the loco number for referencing consists -- much nicer. The latest firmware for NCE creates an internal 1-99 decoder consist number, but lets you reference the consist by a 4 digit loco number. If that isn't more user friendly, I don't know what is.

EasyDCC's improvements are moving in the right direction, but are still behind NCE when it comes to ease-of-use. On top of that, EasyDCC's throttle prices ($220 for a wireless display throttle) are much more than the street prices for NCE wireless display throttles ($190). So NCE is also cheaper than EasyDCC when it comes to throttles.

Finally, EasyDCC's stationary powerpack form factor for the command station programming keypad is becoming quite dated (a problem it shares with the Digitrax Zephyr). With programming on the main widely available now in even cheap fleet-level decoders, having a mobile command station keypad like NCE, Lenz, and the Digitrax DT400 leverages the power of DCC and gives you more options for speed matching locos, running helpers, changing sound settings on-the-fly and so on.

Crandell,

What is SEB?

And, do you really just flip a switch and have power to your track?  For that matter, with the exception of Digitrax, what has to be done with the other systems to get power to the locomotive in order to run it?

In the case of Digitrax, I have to press the power button, then press the "Y+" button which applies power.  If the loco number displayed on the throttle is the one I want to run, I just crank it up & off it goes.  If not,  then press the "Sel Loco" button, enter the number of the locomotive, press the "Sel Loco" button again and I'm done. If the headlights aren't on, I press the light button, if the sound isn't on, I just press F8. To MU two or more locos, I just select the first one in the right throttle, select the second one in the left throttle, hit the MU button & "+", and it's done. If I want to add another loco, just select it in the left throttle, hit MU & "+", and it's added. To break up a consist, select the loco you want to remove in the left throttle, hit MU & "-". Nice a simple, and once you do it a couple of times, it becomes second nature. How does one MU locos in NCE or EZ DCC?  To turn off power, press the power button, the "-" button and power is off. One of the nice things I've found is I can check for shorts at power on and turn the power off just by hitting the "-" button. Don't have to wait for the light bulbs to light up

As to why I bought Digitrax, I was at the 2000 NMRA convention in San Jose and ran into Loy Spurlock, whom I knew from Train Mountain. and he convinced me to buy a Chief system which has been up graded to Super Chief with the addition of a DT400, which made programming locos much easier(never did get the hang of it with the DT100).  Also, interfacing with JMRI is a snap.

Bob Hayes

Bob,

With a NCE system there is no power on/off step necessary.  Plug the unit in and its on and ready to go.  When wiring your layout room and an outlet that is controlled by a light switch.  Simply turn on the switch and your good to go.

Consisting on a NCE is much easier than on a Digitrax.  On a ProCab there is a section with 4 buttons marked "Consist".  The buttons are 'setup' 'clear' 'add' 'delete'.

To make a consist simply press 'setup'  The display will know prompt you and walk you through making a consist.  The preferred consisting method with NCE is Advanced consisting, not universal like Digitrax.  Select a consist # or let the command station assign one.  Enter the address of the lead loco, enter its direction, it will now prompt you for the rear loco address and its direction.  Continue adding loco addresses and directions until you're done.  After entering the last loco press 'enter' and you exiting the consist sub-routine. 

To add a loco to an existing consist simply press the 'add' button.  Select the consist and add the loco address by following the screen prompts.  It is a similar process to delete a loco from a consist.

The clear the entire consist simply press 'clear' and enter the consist #.  All loco assign to that consist will now be released and will operate independently.

IMO NCE is much easier to consist on than Digitrax.  I don't need to remember to have the consist on the right throttle and the loco to consist on the left.  I don't have to try see if the little direction triangle is point forward or reverse, NCE's screen says "DIR OF THIS LOCO: F or R"  If it says FWD and I want REV I simply press the direction button to change it.

One other thing, I'll take exception to your statement about hooking up your Super Chief to a JMRI is a snap.  To do that don;t you need an additional piece of hardware between the command station of the PC?  NCE PHP come with a RS232 port built-in.  Simple connect with a serial cable and your done.

jktrains

Bob Hayes wrote:

Crandell, What is SEB? And, do you really just flip a switch and have power to your track?  For that matter, with the exception of Digitrax, what has to be done with the other systems to get power to the locomotive in order to run it?... Bob Hayes

Hi, Bob.  The SEB is the old Super Empire Builder from Digitrax.  It uses the DB 150 as the base station.  When I flick the tiny power toggle up to "on", the system powers up and the locomotives previously engaged on the throttles (it comes with one DT 400, and I purchased a second so that my brothers and nephew could join the fun now and then) are there to get moving if I choose.  To change any acquisition, simple depress the encoder for two seconds, the loco address in the display flashes, and I can turn the encoder to scroll down the stack for a new loco.  Click the encoder, and I have the new loco running.

When I power up with the toggle, there is no Y+ because I do not shut down the power to the track when I leave the layout...I just flip the same toggle, or nowadays press the power switch on a surge protector to save wear and tear on the toggle.

-Crandell

I have to admit that even to me this is just plain wierd: My only complaint about Digitrax is not operational! It is the blankety-blank battery covers on the DT400 and UT4 throttles, I dont know about others. I have lost the cover on the UT4 and the one on the DT400 just recently broke off one side of the little clip, so it can be bumped off. So far I haven't lost it, but based on the other one I don't think it will be long, eh?                                                            Yes there is a learning curveto any DCC system, and I was unfortunate enough to get in a situation at a public meet where I didn't know how to undo a consist that we made up on the fly. I didn't realize that the loco on the right throttle was the lead unit when I tried to consist two others with the left throttle on the 400, and when we tried to move them my switcher moved too! In reverse, yet! How embarrassing, then I couldn't undo it. Well, nothing damaged, and another lesson learned, which sounds just like real life!                                          jc5729 John Colley, Port Townsend, WA

One of the more significant issues I have with Digitrax is the way it handles consisting.

Digitrax defaults to command station consists, and the only way you can change this is to go into the command station settings and change how consisting is done to decoder-based consists.

If you do this, you will lose the ability to do nested consists, which is a real bummer. NCE's consisting is by far the most flexible and user-friendly, allowing you to do either decoder-based or command-station based consists that you reference by the 4-digit loco number. You can freely nest consists inside each other. All-in-all, very easy and powerful.

EasyDCC, on the other hand, will complain if you try to nest consists, although it also lets you freely make either decoder-based or command station-based consists.

Lenz puts limits on command-station based consists, only allowing two such locos in a consist. Lenz mainly does decoder-based consisting (which is the only kind of consisting allowed in their Set 90).

And then we have Digitrax, which won't allow you to mix consisting types together, defaults to command-station consisting (which causes more command traffic to the rails, and slows down throttle response if you have very many consists). You can't change to decoder-based consisting (which gives much better throttle response when you have lots of consists) without altering a command station setting -- and when you go to decoder-based consisting, Digitrax loses the ability to nest consists.

I have found that with EasyDCC, Lenz, and Digitrax I can circumvent the consisting limitations by learning how to program CV19 directly myself. But now I have to become an expert on CV19 programming (not an onerous task, but still, I have to get under the hood because of the artifical limits of these systems) -- and now I have to work with addressing loco lashups using consist numbers from 1-99.

With NCE, I can do all I want to do with consisting and never think once about CV19. I just grab the consist very naturally by using the 4-digit loco number. And to top it off, with NCE whichever end of the loco lashup I address, that becomes the front of the lashup! All very user-friendly and natural.

cwclark wrote:

that's what i meant..i can take throttles over to my friends house to run on their DCC systems. One of my RR buds has more tracks and trains than he has throttles for...

And this is one very good reason to go with a specific system over any other -- if all your train buddies have a specific system.

Not only does this make it easy to share throttles, but it also means there's probably local help on a problem when you need it.

jfugate wrote:

cwclark wrote: that's what i meant..i can take throttles over to my friends house to run on their DCC systems. One of my RR buds has more tracks and trains than he has throttles for... And this is one very good reason to go with a specific system over any other -- if all your train buddies have a specific system. Not only does this make it easy to share throttles, but it also means there's probably local help on a problem when you need it.

The main reason why I selected Digitrax also, as the LHS sells only Digitrax and all the guys here are using the same DCC system. So the theory of strength in numbers rings true with my learning curve.

I just installed my DCC system a few months back, and Kim at Train Buddy is only a short phone call or a 10 minute drive away when I need quick hands on assistance or have a quick question.

cwclark wrote:

For example: Just to run a locomotive, I have to first turn on the power button, then enter the +Y command

  Yup, default behavior for the DCS100 is to come up with track power turned off.

  Personally, I don't think it's a big deal.  There are times I power up the CS to do some decoder programming, and I don't need or even particularly want the whole layout powered up.

  But if you don't like that behavior, you can change it by setting either OPSW 33 or 34.  There's nothing stopping you from making it work the way you want it to.

HTH,
Steve 

jfugate wrote:

cwclark wrote: that's what i meant..i can take throttles over to my friends house to run on their DCC systems. One of my RR buds has more tracks and trains than he has throttles for... And this is one very good reason to go with a specific system over any other -- if all your train buddies have a specific system. Not only does this make it easy to share throttles, but it also means there's probably local help on a problem when you need it.

I'll respectfully disagree with you on this one Joe.  I wouldn't sacrifice my preferences in a system just because other's in the area choose a different system or my LHS only sells one system.  It sounds like cwclark did this and is suffering from a mild case of buyers remorse.  Sure the system works and serves the purpose, but was it really his first choice?

The fundamentals of DCC apply regardless of the manufacturer's system you use.  The need for a proper sized power bus, turnout wiring and control, power districts, reversing sections etc. are all handled the same whether you use D, NCE, MRC, Lenz et.al. 

I was in a group with people who presented themselves as D system knowledgeable.  I realized that wasn't the case when it took us 6 hours to figure out how to hook everything up and that no one had a clue as to why it didn't work.  Everyone looked to me to fix the problem, yet it wasn't my system.  I finally had to ask for a manual and tried to figure out what the solution was.  Not a fun way to spend a morning, afternoon and into the evening.  Moral of the story - don't rely on someone else to solve your problems by thinking that everyone else owns the same system then one of them can help me out.  Problem with that is what happens when its 11PM when the problem needs solved.  Get the system you want, you're investing a lot of money in it, get what you want, not what everyone else wants you to get.

jktrains

jktrains wrote:

Moral of the story - don't rely on someone else to solve your problems by thinking that everyone else owns the same system then one of them can help me out.  Problem with that is what happens when its 11PM when the problem needs solved.  Get the system you want, you're investing a lot of money in it, get what you want, not what everyone else wants you to get. jktrains

Ain't that the truth.  And just because a bunch of locals use and tout a given system doesn't necessarily mean that it will be good for you. 

The manuals are included for a reason, and they solve the majority of problems for users.  I still get into mine a couple of times a month it seems.