Electronics and DCC

Okay, my other DCC forum clinic assumed you had already selected your DCC system, and went from there.

The "What's the best DCC system to buy?" question comes up at least once a week in this forum, so let's address it head on. The MR DCC buyer's guide was useful to a point, but it didn't really address for newbies how to determine what matters and what doesn't matter when picking a system.

So let's do that!

But first, my disclaimer:
The postings I make in this clinic are my opinions, and not everyone will agree with me. I'll try to be as fair as I can when discussing various systems' strengths and weaknesses, but it is remember, my opinion. I do stand on the fact I have over 12 year's experience with DCC and that I have owned two different vendor's systems in that time, and that I have quite a bit of operating experience using the other vendor's systems that I will discuss at length. I have also downloaded and read through the manuals on all the systems I will discuss.

TOPIC NEXT POST: How do you define "BEST" ?

Well, as chief instigator of a related thread, I'll throw down my 2cents. Here are the critical elements for me when considering DCC. In other words, my "best" system would be the one that has the most advantageous offering in these areas (several of which, especially "throttle" are highly subjective!)

1) Throttles. This is critical to me - it's the interface I use and whether I like it or not will determined a large chunk of how happy I am. Issues I'd want to know: Knobs, dials or buttons for primary speed control. Availability of simpler "engineer" throttles versus "dispatcher" throttles. Programmable buttons available, one-push function buttons, complexity of keying sequence to accomplish functions.

2) Wireless. Yes, a subset of Throttles, really, but critical. What wireless options does the system support. How well do they work? What are the limitations (i.e. changing locos without plugging in?) Are there technical issues reports (e.g. time lag). While it might not be a prerequisite today, I see this being like cordless phones. When they first came out, they were a gimmick, a luxury, a gadget. Now they're dominant. I'd guess that 10 years from now it will be unusual to run around a layout plugging and unplugging a tether. I know personally I won't go into a system that doesn't offer a wireless option.

3) Stationary decoders/non-train function control. I realize part of this answer is "that's about the decoder, not the system, and any system SHOULD in theory run any decoder." I'd suggest that A) that isn't true (not all systems will run all decoders) and B) the system itself does impact this issue: e.g. How does the system interface with other-than-loco controls. How complex is it to control signaling, switches/turnouts, accessories, etc. How does it interact with block detection. Does it support two-way decoders and if so, how. Etc.

4) Updateability. Can the system software be updated as standards change and/or new features come available. How? Download? Send the system in? Etc.

5) CTC. Does the system have a way to interface with a CTC functionality. Through a computer such as JMRI? Through a more hardware-based solution like a traditional CTC panel?

This is my top 5 (and I'm purposely limiting it to 5). These are simply MY key issues, and I haven't addressed things like full NMRA compatibility (or lack thereof), support for sound and how complete/effective that support is, etc. etc. Love to hear other people's inputs!

Good topic and timely for me as I plan to get into DCC early next year.
My top 5 areas are:
1. Ease of use - I program computers all day at work, I don't want to come home and program the DCC system all night. Ideally I plug the wires into the system and the track, pick up the wireless throttle and start running trains. I understand that it's not going to be quite that simple, but how close to that is the system?
2. Technical support - when I call for help how good is it?
3. Expandability - can I start small and grow without having to dump parts that I started with?
4. Reliability - How well does the system work, especially the wireless?
5. How touchy is the system, that is can I install it myself and have it work even though some of my wiring connections may be less than perfect?

Enjoy
Paul

kchronister, that's a great list to start things off. I'd like to add one more item:

6) Expandability: If your DCC needs grow, or if you want to add additional features, can you expand your current DCC system without having to replace any of the equipment (command stations, etc) that you already have?

Perhaps if we keep it at "how do you define" and leave out discussions of specific systems, this can succeed. Armed with a full discussion of what are "must haves" "like to haves" and "don't cares", one can look at a chart such at the MR buyer's guide and make a decision.
Because quite frankly, even with the best of intentions, if we start talking about which specific system is 'best', this will quickly turn into a flame war.

I'll add a few other items for consideration:

1. Local usage - unless you are a true "lone wolf" modeler and don't interact with other locals and clubs, it can be very helpful to use the same system as the majority of those around you - if not for operating session items like using your throttle on their layout, then for having good local support and help while you get your system going.

2. Third party support - I mean elements specific to a system, since any compliant system SHOULD be able to access any compliant accessory decoder. I'm talking add-ons compatible with specific systems at points where there is no NMRA standard, such as at the throttle bus and command bus levels. Can you do ie signalling without being tied to one vendor?

3. Local availability - sort of goes with #1, if your LHS has a knowledgeable DCC department, and they sell and support primarily Brand A, shoudl you really buy Brand B or C for yourself?

--Randy

As an IO Psych type, my interest would be in simple ergonomics. The human-machine interface must be intuitive and ergonomically sound. I think we would all agree that the range in these two dimensions is rather broad across the spectrum.

The aircraft industry went through this very early when they found that their cockpit feedback mechanisms were not serving the pilots well. Once they got their minds to the right way of designing the cockpit for the human, fewer pilots made fewer mistakes.

Personally, the tiny knobs on the DT400 work for me...I have small hands, but I know that others prefer larger ones. Maybe the manufacturers should offer a range of paddle types and sizes. Certainly the display on the DT400 leaves much to be desired. Sure, I know it now, but the learning curve is a real bi**h with Digitrax's ergonomics.

That is my [2c].

Thank-you to both you gentlemen for initiating this discussion. My compliments.

Thanks Joe

This is exactly what I wanted the Buyer's Guide to be - what is the best DCC system to buy given one's personal circumstances. Some of the criteria has already been mentioned by others. I especially liked kchronister's criteria - except that I'm not sure what a CTC capability is. Other criteria I might add:

total cost for a realistic configuration - or at least include the costs for each of the components to get to a wireless or tethered plus costs for each additional operator/locomotive.

scalability - not important for me as a lone wolf, but certainly for most others. The Buyer's Guide covered this somewhat - # of throttles, decoders, power before you have to upgrade components or expand. There may be more to this I don't know.

I respectfully disagree with Randy, I do need specifics about each system. Otherwise, I'm back to the inadequate comparison chart. The problem, as you pointed out Joe, is that most folks have only experience with one particular system, and most of the rest is "I heard" type of thing about other systems. I hope very much that posters will keep their comments specific and based on facts or first-hand experience; that by doing this we can avoid the flame wars Randy fears.

yours in learning about DCC
Fred Wright

Just pick out which Digitrax unit you want and the search is over. NEXT

TOPIC THIS POST: How do you define "BEST" ?

When people post the question, "What the best DCC system to get?" what are they really asking?

If it was just a matter of best being what's cheapest, then that's simple math, so that's probably not the question.

If I could restate the question simply, I would say it would be more like this:

What DCC system has the most functionality for the least cost?

In other words, it can cost more if I get more.

Also, the question might be restated as:

"Which DCC features must I insist on regardless of cost, and which DCC features can I do without and thus save some money?"

In other words, can someone rank the DCC features for me, and tell me what systems have the important ones?

The problem, of course, is DCC feature ranking is highly subjective. And some important considerations may not even be features at all.

So let's attack the question of "best" by sticking to considerations and features without regard to specific systems at first. Then we'll embark on comparing various systems to our ranked list of features and considerations.

TOPIC NEXT POST: Important DCC considerations that are not system features

Thanks, Mr. Fugate. This is exactly the kind of thread I've been looking for. Beyond basic information (type of throttle, ability to utilize sound, etc.), a lot of questions come to mind that I can't really find the answers for by reading manufacturer's websites. Things like, how much space will it take, how hot does it get, how many "accessories" do I have to shell out for to take advantage of the features, etc.

Again, thanks. I'm really looking forward to this thread!

Ray

I'm all ears.

As many of you know, I'm moving very soon. I will be wanting to upgrade as I rebuild.

I've been out of the "whats new in DCC" loop just long enough to really screw up, so this is perfect.

You ALL have my undivided attention.

TOPIC THIS POST: Important DCC considerations that are not system features

You can look at a feature comparison matrix all day long and you typically won't find these items listed. About the only way you will get a definitive answer on these questions will be to talk to others who have the system and have used it for some time. [2+ years]


Practical considerations

What's available locally for this system?
Is the system used by other modelers or clubs in your area? This can be important because there's nothing like first-hand advice when you get an issue. Also, if you are in line with what many of the other modelers in your area own, then when you visit each other's layouts, everyone can bring their throttles. A great way to save money and to immediately feel comfortable running the trains. If you don't know the answer to this question, then before you buy a system find out!

Does the LHS carry it?
If the local hobby shop carries the DCC system, all the better. This makes it easy to get parts, advice on usage, and so on.

If the LHS doesn't carry it, then when you order the system, do you take delivery right away or does it get back ordered? It can be really annoying if when you are finally ready to order the system, you have to wait weeks or even months before you see anything. The hobby is just small enough that DCC manufacturers don't always have some system parts in stock, but instead wait until they get a critical mass of orders and then they'll take advantage of an economy of scale to fill the backlogged orders. The best thing here to do is to email or call the manufacturer and ask them what their typical order turnaround is for a new system order.


Ease of use, reliability, and support

How easy is the system to use?
This is one you won't see on anyone's feature matrix. It can be pretty subjective, but as a professional software developer who has been in the business for nearly 30 years, let me define it the way I would define it:

"How easy is it to just guess how to do something by looking at the command unit, and not using the manual?"

The easiest way to test this is to use the one I like to try: making a lashup of diesel locos (a consist to use DCC terminolgy).

Just look at the command unit, and now without checking the manual, can you figure out how you would make the consist? What if you wanted to later add or drop a loco from the consist, can you guess how you would do it just by looking at the command unit?

This one simple test will tell you a lot about ease of use, or "user friendliness" as it's called in the computer software world.


How reliable is the system?
To me, this really gets to the heart of the "best system" question. The system can have gazillions of cool features, be super easy to use, but if it's not reliable, I hardly would call it the "best".

About the only way you will get a good answer to this question is to ask people who have the system and who have used it regularly for a while. I say the person needs to have used the system for at least two years before you will get a good sense of how a system performs in this area.

A good place to get this kind of information if there are no local modelers who regularly use the system is to go online and watch the support forums for each system. What kinds of problems are typically discussed on the support forums for each system? You'll learn a lot if you even lurk for a week or two.

Does the system have quirks? This is yet another way to approach the reliablity/ease-of-use question. It might be reliable, but it also might have some unexpected normal behavior that can get annoying. This needs to be called out!


TOPIC NEXT POST: Let's rank the systems against these considerations

Although I haven't told my wife this, I'll probably be shopping for a new system starting in about 6 months. My Prodigy system (used, Ebay, $99), while a nice introduction to DCC, has absolutely no future - not even it's replacement is compatible with it.

And by then I'm hoping my layout will be large enough that I'll start needing wireless.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffshultz Although I haven't told my wife this, I'll probably be shopping for a new system starting in about 6 months.

Jeff:

Mum's the word. [:-^]