General Discussion (Model Railroader)

I'm becoming convinced that scenery is just about the most important aspect of making a model railroad apear to be high quality.

It may be sort of superficial, but it's sort of like how a nicely groomed person will always leave you with a better impression than someone who does not care at all about thier appearance.

Nothing draws me to the look of a layout more than the scenery

(this is my opinion only, of course)

SB:

For presentation purposes (first impression, for example), scenery makes a huge difference. And if you want to put your layout in the magazines or post photos online, it's the scenery photos that will carry you.

So yes, SB, great observation.

However ... when operating your layout, scenery matters less than you might think in the mix. I discuss the various layout items that influence "quality of run" in my operations forum clinic here.

In the operations mix, whether or not the layout has scenery is pretty far down the list.

So if you are just looking at the layout, yes, scenery makes a huge difference. But once you start running trains, how statisfying that experience is depends more on the train and its performance than it does on the presence or lack of scenery. In other words, the greatest looking scenery in the world isn't going to increase your train-running enjoyment one whit if the train looks and runs like crap!  

Joe,

I'm not sure if this question has come up or not but what would you guess it would cost per sq ft. to do your layout with your techniques.  Reason I ask is when it comes time to build my scenery for my layout, mine will be much like yours with the landscape being mostly pine trees and tall grass and scrubs.  What cost can I estimate?

selector wrote:

I guess, then, that the "compleat" modeller takes a more "wholistic" approach to his layout if he wants to impress guests of both natures, the non-modelling ones and the ones who like realistic operations.  As Yogi Berra would have said, "Ya gotta cover your bases."

Selector:

Very astute observation. I once visited a layout with imaculate scenery, the layout was totally scenicked to completion, everything was weathered, all the buildings were done -- everything!

Seeing a completely finished layout like that was almost sensory overload -- it looked absolutely stunning. However, it was a still life. Talking to some local modelers, they related to me the layout ran like crap. Things derailed all over the place, the trackwork was so bad you couldn't have a decent op session. The owner of the layout was beside himself with disappointment at how the layout had turned out operationally.

So for the best all-around satisfying layout, you need both good looks and good performance.

But this begs the question -- if you have to make a choice, if you have to make a compromise, which is best? Good looks or good performance?

It depends. If you fancy yourself a modeler first and don't run trains too much, then good looks comes first. But if, like me, all this other modeling stuff is simply a means to the end of operation, then good performance comes first, then good looks.  

zgardner18 wrote:

Joe, I'm not sure if this question has come up or not but what would you guess it would cost per sq ft. to do your layout with your techniques.  Reason I ask is when it comes time to build my scenery for my layout, mine will be much like yours with the landscape being mostly pine trees and tall grass and scrubs.  What cost can I estimate?

Zak:

What I spent and what you need to spend will be different since my layout is 16 years old now and costs have gone up.  So you will need to reprice things at todays prices to get a modern figure.

Layout costs are interesting ... they won't be what people expect. There's the obvious cost of the space, but I won't cover that here, since the cost of housing is pretty well understood.

But let's discuss hobby costs for a moment.

The cheapest part of a layout is the benchwork and plain plaster scenery. Next comes wiring and electrical. The most expensive part of a basic layout is the trackwork, and turnouts are the most expensive part of trackwork.

For me, my basic layout cost me (1991-1997) about $7 per square foot. This is with all the benchwork and trackwork, and DCC system in place and bare brown plaster. No trees or finished scenery.

The two most expensive layout items are equipment and scenery details. As to equipment, locos cost the most (that's obvious to most people), and scenery detail cost can just go on and on and on, until you want to quit detailing. If you are into superdetailing your scenery alla George Sellios style, then be prepared for your scenery detailing costs to be more than the cost of your equipment.

I'm not a superdetailing guy, I'm more in Allen McClelland's camp of "good enough" detailing. I prefer for the overall scene to look complete and detailed, but not to go crazy with details. This approach is certainly cheaper.

My scenery details double the square foot price of the layout to $14 per sq ft. The cost of my equipment has been about equal to the cost of the layout, with details. So if you wanted to turn that into a square foot figure (kind of hard with equipment, obviously, but we can try it just for interest's sake), then we've got about $28 per square foot for a completely finished layout. Now that's in 1990 dollars, and some 2000 dollars. If you are just starting today, it's going to be more ... my guess is at least 25% more.

Using these figures a basic 4x8 would cost you about $900, which sounds about right. A 500 sq ft layout, finished, would cost you about $14,000, which sounds like a lot, but if you build the layout over 10 years time, that's just a little over $100 a month. A nice dinner and a movie for two can run you $50, so $100 per month on the hobby isn't all that much.

So the basic layout is pretty cheap ($7 per sq ft). It's what you put on the layout (scenery details and equipment) that costs the real money ($21 per sq ft). Of course, it's probably more today ... my guess would be something like $9 per sq ft for the basic layout and $26 per sq ft for all the details and equipment.

So here's an idea ... tell all your buddies you will provide the layout if they will provide all the equipment ... and you have just cut the cost of the hobby in half, if you do that.

Thanks Joe, you've brought our some great points. 

jfugate wrote:

It depends. If you fancy yourself a modeler first and don't run trains too much, then good looks comes first. But if, like me, all this other modeling stuff is simply a means to the end of operation, then good performance comes first, then good looks.

I would contend that if you want to run the layout at all, even if it is just a train running in a loop, if it does not run flawlessly then any modeller would be doomed to disappointment.  I don't have nearly the skill or the experience of you Joe, but I learned very early on to test the heck out of my track-work before getting going on the scenery.  Even if I considered myself first and foremost a modeller with limited interest in operation, when visitors come to see the layout they want to  see a train run.  A poorly running train, derailments etc will quickly take attention away from excellent scenery.

Joe:

I was going to say that most scenery is to bright or intense. Tony Koester once stated, as did Dave Frary, "there ought to be a law againsted model railroaders using pure red, white, blue, and all of the other colors. Tone it down a bit" And all of you are right. The colors are to colorful, the atmosphere creates changes in colors when we are looking out side, almost as if you are looking through a haze, therefore the colors are toned down. On a model railroad one is trying to create the same visual effect.

I know many vaccum their layouts to keep the cobwebs off, but on my layout I not only try and subdue the colors when painting, I leave the dust and it works great. I even have spider webs, most of those I clean off, but sometimes where they place their webs is perfect. Like wires from poles or a telephone line to a building, (I am serious), they have actually strung their webs between phone poles, I kid you not. But I leave most of the dust because it take the colors down a few notches and looks more realistic.

I also took Tony's suggestion to heart, by not using bright colors, and if I do, then weathering becomes trick. You yourself have a wonderful layout, the WTRR is on the way but I have no way to put pictures on the net, but I'll find a way. Thanks for your work in the hobby.

The Yardmaster

WTRR Railroad 

simon1966 wrote:

jfugate wrote: It depends. If you fancy yourself a modeler first and don't run trains too much, then good looks comes first. But if, like me, all this other modeling stuff is simply a means to the end of operation, then good performance comes first, then good looks.   I would contend that if you want to run the layout at all, even if it is just a train running in a loop, if it does not run flawlessly then any modeller would be doomed to disappointment.

Simon: 

You would think this is true (you really want both good looks and good performance) and for most people it is.

However, when I was in High School I became good friends with the custodian because he was a passionate model railroader. He related to me how he could spend hours on end building and detailing models and he didn't care one whit to have a layout of any substance. He was a model builder ... running the trains just didn't really matter to him and any layout he had was to display his model building efforts ... he had no interest in switching, doing meets between trains, or any of that. His layout was a glorified test track with a bit of scenery to show off his models to their best advantage.

So they are out there ... but I expect they are very much in the minority. 

jfugate wrote:

selector wrote: I guess, then, that the "compleat" modeller takes a more "wholistic" approach to his layout if he wants to impress guests of both natures, the non-modelling ones and the ones who like realistic operations.  As Yogi Berra would have said, "Ya gotta cover your bases." Selector: Very astute observation. I once visited a layout with imaculate scenery, the layout was totally scenicked to completion, everything was weathered, all the buildings were done -- everything! Seeing a completely finished layout like that was almost sensory overload -- it looked absolutely stunning. However, it was a still life. Talking to some local modelers, they related to me the layout ran like crap. Things derailed all over the place, the trackwork was so bad you couldn't have a decent op session. The owner of the layout was beside himself with disappointment at how the layout had turned out operationally. So for the best all-around satisfying layout, you need both good looks and good performance. But this begs the question -- if you have to make a choice, if you have to make a compromise, which is best? Good looks or good performance? It depends. If you fancy yourself a modeler first and don't run trains too much, then good looks comes first. But if, like me, all this other modeling stuff is simply a means to the end of operation, then good performance comes first, then good looks.

robert sylvester wrote:

Joe: I was going to say that most scenery is to bright or intense. Tony Koester once stated, as did Dave Frary, "there ought to be a law againsted model railroaders using pure red, white, blue, and all of the other colors. Tone it down a bit" And all of you are right. The colors are to colorful, the atmosphere creates changes in colors when we are looking out side, almost as if you are looking through a haze, therefore the colors are toned down. On a model railroad one is trying to create the same visual effect. I know many vaccum their layouts to keep the cobwebs off, but on my layout I not only try and subdue the colors when painting, I leave the dust and it works great. I even have spider webs, most of those I clean off, but sometimes where they place their webs is perfect. Like wires from poles or a telephone line to a building, (I am serious), they have actually strung their webs between phone poles, I kid you not. But I leave most of the dust because it take the colors down a few notches and looks more realistic.

Yep, very astute observation. I discuss this and other expert tips to getting more realistic looking scenery in MR's Information Station Video PDF, "Realistic Scenery Secrets". There are some simple ways you can test if your layout colors are too intense, and I provide a demonstration example in the video clips with this PDF.

wickman wrote:

Just thought I'd bring this great thread back to life

Thanks!

Every now and then, I post some more about modeling scenery on my own website (URL is in my signature).

You know, I even had a bunch of slot car modelers who have discovered my scenery clinic and who are using these techniques. So modeling realistic miniature scenery is not a task limited to just model railroaders, as I am finding out.