General Discussion (Model Railroader)

I thought it might be fun to start a thread that is sort of a "clinic" on designing for operations. I've been in this hobby almost 40 years and have designed and built 6 layouts of my own, been the editor of the Layout Design Special Interest Group's publications for 4 years, and anayzed countless track plans.

So how do you design your layout so it will be fun to operate, and that it remains satisfying longer?

Understanding car capacity and how it affects operation is one key.

If you look at your design and compute the number of cars you can store in the yards and spurs, you can learn some interesting things. In HO, I use 40 foot car lengths, which is about 6 inches, so it's easy to compute by using a scale rule and the track plan drawn to scale.

Make sure and allow for clearances near switches, so only work in whole car lengths.

If you determine that the yard and spurs on your track plan have a total capacity of 200 cars, then 80% of that number (160 cars) is how many cars the layout can hold and be *jam packed* full. If you go more than that, you will have no room to maneuver, and after all , this is a hobby where we *run trains*.

Actually, even 80% full is pretty jammed, and you will find it difficult to move things more often than not. I find that 60% full (120 cars in the example) is more like it. I would describe 60% full as "full but fluid" as far as operations is concerned.

Next topic point: Staging.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate If you determine that the yard and spurs on your track plan have a total capacity of 200 cars, then 80% of that number (160 cars) is how many cars the layout can hold and be *jam packed* full. If you go more than that, you will have no room to maneuver, and after all , this is a hobby where we *run trains*. Actually, even 80% full is pretty jammed, and you will find it difficult to move things more often than not. I find that 60% full (120 cars in the example) is more like it. I would describe 60% full as "full but fluid" as far as operations is concerned. Next topic point: Staging.

Interesting topic! I wi***hat I had access to this simple formula when I started designing my railroad 18 years ago (where the heck has the time went).

I've only held one semi-formal session on my railroad to date, and already I can see that my division point yard is going to be a bottleneck. But, that is going to make things "fun", as now I may have to rethink how my trains are blocked. With the addition of another yard off of my new 8 track reverse loop staging yard, I may change the way the trains come "on property". Presently, I run through trains from the GN at Hillyard and NP at Parkwater past South Spokane Yard on my Spokane Southern, and run to McDaniel Yard in Worley Idaho. Once my South Spokane yard is complete, I may start running transfers from Hillyard and Parkwater, and classifying trains that go through Worley, and those that terminate at Worley. Capacity issues are real world problems that railroads have to deal with every day. Kinda adds a new element to running the "model" railroad.

As far as staging, my initial design criteria worked off of the formula

S = D x 2

where S = Number of tracks required and D = Number of tracks installed.......

Hence the need for the new 8 track staging yard, which allows my railroad to run as a true point to point.

regards,
Jerry Zeman

At PSX 2004, there was a clinic on planning the car loading for smoother operations. I don;t have the info with me but could provide it if needed. Basic premise was to keep the yards fluid by only loading them to about 50% capacity. Use the same 50% for industry sidings and also group them into areas for different locals to switch. That also helps determine the length of the local trains. For example, a group of industries with 12 car spots should average 6 full and 6 empty so the local train would, on the average, consist of 6 cars to be spotted and the 6 there would be pulled. That leaves room for manuvering. Staging tracks can be up to 100% loaded at the start and end of an operating session as long as there are no trains 'en route' at the start of the next session.

When designing the Western Pacific I tried to use the 75% number and it appears to be working just fine EXCEPT.... I keep finding new cars to purchase !
I just added a new yard and converted another over to a small industrial area so I have a new lease on life for awhile[:)]
The two bad things ( there are more ) I think you can create, is not enough spaces for all the cars and not enough room for the operators.

I think if you end up with a problem with too many cars, not enough slots so to speak, the answer would be create an off railroad shipping site where you would store the cars until the shipping program asked for them back. I use a computer generated program so it is not difficult to program a holding period for the excess cars.

May not be the best way, but I think it would work fine

Next point: Staging

Staging yards are the one exception to this 60%-80% capacity rule. You can jam staging tracks completely full of cars and then use them to feed trains onto the railroad.

However ...

Assuming a typical model railroad configuration with staging yards at both ends, when you jam-pack staging, you need to allow for one empty staging yard track somwhere. This will enable you to send a train from one staging yard, over the railroad, and into that empty track. The train that moved will leave one empty staging track behind, making room for yet another train to move, etc.

This principle of staging yards is why a single double-ended staging yard connecting both ends of the layout works so well . Any time a train leaves staging, it *automatically* makes room for another train in staging.

Next topic: Passing sidings.

Joe, I really like the idea of having online clinics. Maybe instead of starting a new one every time, you could just edit the title of this one. This would keep everything together in one place, and alow it to stay near the front page like the Coffee Shop does. I'm not sure if that is what you had in mind, but I think it would work well.

My railroad is at the perfect stage for this topic. Even though I have a plan drawn, I use it only as a guide. Details are subject to change if better ideas come along. I have my benchwork nearly built, and my mainline design is pretty much set, but yards, towns and industries are still very much in play.

For towns and industries, I like to think of them as little switching puzzles connected by the mainline or a branch line.

I have noticed, at a number of operating sessions I've attended, the host ends up running around answering questions, etc., and gets very little chance to operate his own railroad, especially if the crew is large. I like the idea of being able to operate with any sized crew.

Big Boy:

I know your observation about the layout owner is true, since I've operated on many layouts and your observation is all-too-common.

I think it pays to work the kinks out of your railroad with regular operating sessions and to develop an experienced crew who can deal with common issues without needing to always call in the owner.

On my HO Siskiyou Line, we have reached this point. Last op session in November, I ran the Roseburg yard and had a ball. In a prior session, I was the dispatcher, and before that I ran one of the favorite trains on the layout, the Coos Bay Hauler.

Sometimes, I just enjoy being a "super duper" railfan and moving around to see how everyone is doing and railfanning various spots on the layout. But then I'm doing that because I want to, not because the railroad needs "babysitting".

Hi Joe..Im in line with Big-Boy-4005, you forum clinic is on target. Being Im new to the operation side of modeling I will just stop, look and listen on a dailey basis.

WP Steve, pics will be in the mail on the 9th.

You guys have a good day, looking forward to more info.....John.

Oh yes, and one other point on operating so the owner is free ... we do two person crews on the Siskiyou Line. One person runs the loco (is the engineer), the other is the conductor and talks with the dispatcher. When he's not talking with the dispatcher, the conductor stays near the rear of the train and keeps an eye on it. And I enjoy working together with someone else, conversing, etc. It's more fun than going solo.

And I really like the conductor job, because I *have* to railfan the train. [:D]

The two person crew works great when you have a visitor. You just pair the new guy up with an experienced hand and if there are issues, the experienced guy handles it. Rarely is there a need for the owner to get involved.

This is a GREAT idea. Taking a cue from Elliot, might I suggest that you restart it clean with the simple title "Forum Clinic." That way you won't have all the amen posts (like this one).

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate Oh yes, and one other point on operating so the owner is free ... we do two person crews on the Siskiyou Line. One person runs the loco (is the engineer), the other is the conductor and talks with the dispatcher. When he's not talking with the dispatcher, the conductor stays near the rear of the train and keeps an eye on it. And I enjoy working together with someone else, conversing, etc. It's more fun than going solo. And I really like the conductor job, because I *have* to railfan the train. [:D] The two person crew works great when you have a visitor. You just pair the new guy up with an experienced hand and if there are issues, the experienced guy handles it. Rarely is there a need for the owner to get involved.

OK, Joe, what do you from a design standpoint when you have a reasonable amount of room for a layout (> 350 sq. ft), but the basement is in a rural location where the nearest model railroader you know is 40 miles away, the likelihood of being able to gather a multi-person oerating crew on a regular basis is questionable and you would rather model a main line operation than a branch or short line?

The above is the situation I'm facing. So far, the solution I've come up with on a conceptual basis is to give up on much in the way of mainline running and concentrate on a single town which will provide a lot of local action (for instance Salinas, CA, during the lettuce season in the early 50's) while at the same time providing a variety of through traffic that "struts and frets its hour upon the stage and is heard no more". Since there is an ebb and flow to prototype traffic, the layout would be run in real time choreographed around those times of relatively intense action. No attempt would be made to run a full 24 hours worth of trains. Whether or not this would provide sufficient action for a multi-person crew or not, I don't know as yet. I think it would, but until it's built (or at least under construction), they ain't going to come. [sigh] In any case, I think it would be a relatively small crew (3 or 4 at most in any given session).

Andre

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate Oh yes, and one other point on operating so the owner is free ... we do two person crews on the Siskiyou Line. One person runs the loco (is the engineer), the other is the conductor and talks with the dispatcher. When he's not talking with the dispatcher, the conductor stays near the rear of the train and keeps an eye on it. And I enjoy working together with someone else, conversing, etc. It's more fun than going solo. And I really like the conductor job, because I *have* to railfan the train. [:D] The two person crew works great when you have a visitor. You just pair the new guy up with an experienced hand and if there are issues, the experienced guy handles it. Rarely is there a need for the owner to get involved. OK, Joe, what do you from a design standpoint when you have a reasonable amount of room for a layout (> 350 sq. ft), but the basement is in a rural location where the nearest model railroader you know is 40 miles away, the likelihood of being able to gather a multi-person oerating crew on a regular basis is questionable and you would rather model a main line operation than a branch or short line? The above is the situation I'm facing. So far, the solution I've come up with on a conceptual basis is to give up on much in the way of mainline running and concentrate on a single town which will provide a lot of local action (for instance Salinas, CA, during the lettuce season in the early 50's) while at the same time providing a variety of through traffic that "struts and frets its hour upon the stage and is heard no more". Since there is an ebb and flow to prototype traffic, the layout would be run in real time choreographed around those times of relatively intense action. No attempt would be made to run a full 24 hours worth of trains. Whether or not this would provide sufficient action for a multi-person crew or not, I don't know as yet. I think it would, but until it's built (or at least under construction), they ain't going to come. [sigh] In any case, I think it would be a relatively small crew (3 or 4 at most in any given session). Andre

Andre, 40 miles isn't the end of the world. Remember "If you build it, they will come."[swg]

I live on the edge of the metro area, but I am getting offers for construction help from people over 100 miles away. One person is 250 miles away!!! That's just to help build it. Have a good plan, and make it a reality, and THEY WILL COME.[8D]

Big Boy_4005 sez:

Andre, 40 miles isn't the end of the world. Remember "If you build it, they will come."

I live on the edge of the metro area, but I am getting offers for construction help from people over 100 miles away. One person is 250 miles away!!! That's just to help build it. Have a good plan, and make it a reality, and THEY WILL COME.

Perhaps you're right. OTOH, we're talking about Maine which ain't exactly a hotbed of the hobby. The nearest hobby shop with any kind of model RR inventory is more than an hour's drive away. The nearest hobby shop with a DECENT model RR inventory is nearly 2 hours away.

Even so, you may still be right. Still, I think I'll err on the conservative side and make sure that the thing can be operated solo if necessary. That's not necessarily a bad thing since it means I will be worshipping at the shrine of Our Lady of K.I.S.S.

Andre

Remember that railroads don't run the same number of trains every day and it can vary between times of the year. Don't just limit yourself to one town. if you want build the whole branch. When you operate it yourself , run a "Sunday" schedule or an off season schedule. A daily mixed train and a local freight. Then when you get a full crew on (I have been on excursions where carloads of people drive hundreds of miles to operate) then you can do lettuce harvest with reefer trains galore weaving in between the mixed and the local.

Dave H.

Agreed on the "design it well and they will come ..." comments.

Most of the people who operate my Siskiyou Line drive 30-50 miles to come to an op session. I have semi-regular operators who drive up to 250 miles to come to a session.