I am working on a track plan for the San Antonio, Tx area and would like to diagram the rail lines runnning through the city. Does anyone know where I could find a map of the rail lines and yards in relation to the major streets and landmarks? A map or good book on the area would be great. What I've found online doesn't include much detail or many reference points. Thank you in advance for pointing me in the right direction.
Last week I did a Google map and satellite search for the San Angelo, Odessa, Midland area. I found way more views, above and street, then I know what to do with. This was for UP and BNSF. I'm trying to possibly fit my layout as a fictional UP branch line between San Angelo and Midland. Or as a class II between them. Or maybe not. I have the layout up and running but, not the operations area part.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
A good place to look is Sanborn Fire insurance maps. This is a link I found for sources with texas maps.
ftp://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/library/pubs/bus/env/haz_mat/fire_insurance.pdf
Another option is USGS Topo maps. The map locator is here.
http://store.usgs.gov/b2c_usgs/usgs/maplocator/(xcm=r3standardpitrex_prd&layout=6_1_61_55_2&uiarea=2&ctype=areaDetails&carea=0000001410&citem=00000014060000000039)/.do
A final option is looking for land use maps.
Hope this helps.
SFB
A couple of weeks ago I used Bing Maps "Bird's Eye" view to follow the UP from Austin to San Antonio while looking for rail-served industries. It is a good supplement to the Google maps as it provides you with an actual photo with much more detail than ordinary satellite views.
John Timm
What time period are you modeling or researching?
I have SP employee timetable from several periods which identify yard points and siding lengths, etc.
I have an SP tariff for about 1971 with several pages of railroad-located industries for San Antonio with what railroad served the industry and what commodity was rail handled.
I also have old street maps from 1950s, 60s, 70s showing rail lines.
Sanborn's Fire Insurance maps are mostly interested in buildings and fire protection infrastructure, I have seen a number of maps with rather sketchy railroad drawing, partially corrected, incompletely updated, pieces that do not connect...
Let me know what interests you. I hope I will be able to reply again. I have had a problem recently on this forum where the "reply" function is cut off. I don't mean controversial subjects that are tagged as "locked." I don't know wheher my replies are too long, clog up the system or what. I will try to help as I have time between classes.
Send me a PM with your e-mail address.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
"I am working on a track plan for the San Antonio, Tx area and would like to diagram the rail lines runnning through the city. Does anyone know where I could find a map of the rail lines and yards in relation to the major streets and landmarks? "
San Antonio rail sites by street location
Part 1. Union Pacific/ Former Southern Pacific Sunset Route
Seguin Road/Farm-to-market 78 at Hoeneke Drive entering the corporate limits of Kirby from the east curves to run alongside KIRBY YARD.
Alongside Kirby Yard approximate 1 ½ mile.
West end of yard ends as Seguin Road & rail line cross under Interstate connector 410.
Seguin Road drops below grade level as railroad crosses frontage road at I35/I410 interchange.
Rail line approximately 1 block southeast of and parallel to I35 Northbound frontage, from 410 interchange to cross Coliseum Drive.
One-half mile west of Coliseum Drive, ex-SP Sunset Line crosses over former MKT line on grade separation. (I have a 1988 snapshot of the grade separation taken from I35 frontage)
EAST YARD runs east and west from near intersection of local streets Bethune and Hines to intersection of North Pine and Duval. Duval runs directly along much of the north side of the yard, and there are two overpass crossings, at North Walters and North New Braunfels.
(I have old photos from both...Google Earth also has views from the overpasses))
Much of the former car repair and material stores formerly at East Yard has been moved to Kirby.
Just east of North Pine Street is a sharp 180 degree curve which makes/made up a prototype reverse loop for the yard.
Just west of Hackberry is (was?) the ex-SP engine shops. From Hackberry and Milam, a turntable is visible. At the old engine shops the ex-SP line turns from east-west to run south paralleling and one block west of Cherry Street.
At East Jones Avenue and Cherry Street just west of the curve, an electrically operated short line cut off to serve the Pearl Brewery. (I took pictures when the rails were in the street and wire overhead and saw the electric motor sitting idle but never saw it run...)
At Hays Street, there is a spindly street truss bridge over the railroad line.
At the north side of East Houston Street and west of the double track mainline, some interesting warehouse buildings that seem to have built to allow a curving spur.
Just south of East Commerce Street is Sunset Station, the former SP passenger depot, on the west side of the tracks. There used to be another station for the S.A.A.P. just east of the tracks-- some 80 or 90 years ago.
From Montana Street to Dakota Street, the mainline passes the Alamodome Stadium.
At Florida Street, the north-side south begins a sweeping curve to run east-west.
As the ex-SP line crosses under Interstate 37, it meets the former MKT line.
The lines join at the OLD Roosevelt Ave level crossing.
One block west is a newer route for Roosevelt that takes it through an elaborate concrete underpass.
Just a few steps further west is a bridge over the channelized San Antonio River.
Half a block west of the bridge, an ex-SP branch that once ran to Kerrville cuts off to the north.
Lone Star Boulevard on the south side of the tracks crosses a spur into the Lone Star Brewery.
At the west end of Lone Star Brewery, an ex-SP branch cuts away from the main to the south. It once was the San Antonio and Aransas Pass, running to Corpus Christi and Rockport, now to a power plant on the SE side of San Antonio.
Just west of passing under the elevated Interstate 35, the double-track ex-SP crosses the ex-MP on a pair of diamonds, with a connector track curved on the southeast quadrant of the crossing.
At South San Jacinto Street, the double-track makes a slight curve to go from W slightly byNW to almost due west. Saltillo Street runs along the north side of the tracks from S. San Jac to Alta Vista. There the tracks leave the local street grid behind as they make a broad curve to run southeasterly, crossing Merida, Ceralvo, Brady, crossing under US90.
South of US90, General Hudnell Drive parallels the tracks to cross under the tracks at Frio City and Quintana.
About two blocks distance south of that interchange, the ex-SP line converges with the ex-MoPac line coming in from the east, and the two line flow into SOUTH SAN ANTONIO YARD, “SOSAN”.
Not much public access of view of Sosan Yard from east side until almost south end of the yard at Quintana and Prospect. (You get a prospect of it there...) West side of Sosan is Kelly Air Force Base, probably not camera or sightseeing friendly.)
In 7600 block of Quintana Road, across from what appears to be an electric power plant, is Withers crossover from ex-MP to ex-SP tracks.
In 9300 block of Quintana Road at Cassin Lane, is Alamo Junction, a crossover from ex-SP to ex-MP. Just southwest, the two lines diverge into the countryside, the ex-SP to El Paso and California, and the ex-MP to Laredo.
Does this description help any? Should I do it in a day or two for ex-MP/IGN line, for MKT and for the branches???
Wow! Thank you for the information. Yes, I would like descriptions for the MP/IGN line and branches.
I have not settled on a specific time period yet but the transition era around 1950 is my first choice. Definitely no later than the 1970s. I would like to create a switching layout focused on the rail served industries in the San Antonio area. I was thinking of covering the area from the former Alamo Cement plant (Cementville on the former MoPac line) to the Union Stock Yards and I&GN station. Nothing is set in stone at this point as I am trying to assemble a list of industries and locations to pick from and narrow it down from there.
I fiound some san antonio city maps from the 1980s and a Rand McNally street atlas (1989) which has quite a bit of detail. Google maps and Bing 'birds eye' view have been helpful in identifying current rail lines. I have noticed quite a few abandoned right of ways in this process.
The Texas Transportation Museum website has also been invaluable in supplying historical information on the area's railroads.
I ran through Google Earth and did not find ANY existing industrial spurs on the former MoPac between Cementville and the IGN station!
I located lots of industries on the line from Sanborn's maps updated to about 1950. Here is my rundown on the UP, ex-MoPac line from where it enters the city of San Antonio on the northeast, to the IGN station. The Street names and expressway locations are the 2010 ones. The industries listed are from 1950 EXCEPT for the Focus center.
San Antonio Rail Routes
Part 2. Union Pacific/ ex-MoPac/ ex-IGN
enters San Antonio from Northeast, crossing Anderson Loop 1604 just nw of Nacogdoches Rd
crosses Green Mountain, Judson Road, O’Conner Road, Classen Road suburbs
from intersection of Bulverde & Stahl Road, runs parallel and on south side of Wetmore.
A wye track connection cuts off at Wurzback Parkway for Longhorn business track MP 249.2 Longhorn Cement Quarry
TEXAS TRANSPORTATION MUSEUM is immediately across from Longhorn wye.
Track to Longhorn used to run along Wurzbach about 2 miles to connect to ex-MKT.
ex-MoPac continues SW along East side of San Antonio International Airport along Wetmore
ADAMS Siding MP 254.0 73 cars 3684 feet
industrial spurs run to SE between Chipley Circle and Danbury (streets connect w Broadway, not Wetmore)
“Focus” Direct Mail Center
CROSS UNDER I-410 alongside Wetmore
runs along Vidor St for one block from Hallmark to Chulie.
Cementville business track MP 253.6 (Alamo Cement closed ca. 1980 now Quarry Mkt)
Runs parallel and just east of US281 from Western to Olmos Park Basin.
CROSS San Pedro at Norwood
***Prasel Sash and Door Company with railroad spur, east side of MoPac line,
***Negley Paint Co. factory with railroad spur, west side of MoPac, corner Olmos Drive and San Pedro, per ca. 1950 Sanborn’s map
***Kelly Construction Co. materials yard w railroad spur east side of MoPac
off Belknap Street north of Norwood per 1950 Sanborn’s map
***blind spur (team track?) on w side of MoPac from W.Hildebrand to Norwood (1950)
CROSS East Hildebrand at Breden
***Lumberyard with railroad spur west side of MoPac on Aganier from W.Summit to Agarita (1950)
*** Dog Food canning factory with railroad spur, east side of MoPac between West French and West San Padre (1950)
CROSS Fredericksburg Road at Hickman
track in street R.O.W. San Marcos St.
four industries on one spur, west of MoPac:
***Trunk mftg co. with railroad spur, west side of MoPac. Cornell & San Marcos
***Dave Lehr Co. concrete ready-mix and gravel, shares spur w trunk mftng
Culebra & San Marcos
***Delaware Punch Bottling Co. shares spur. Culebra & San Marcos
***Karotkin Furniture shares spur . West Laurel & San Marcos
***Wholesale beer distributer with railroad spur west side of MoPac.
West Laurel & San Marcos
***Brandt Iron Works foundry with railroad spur runs full block west of MoPac.
Lombrano and N. Colorado.
***James Donaldson Bldg Matl. with railroad spur west side of MoPac
Lombrano & San Marcos
CROSS under I-10 at Lombrano
***F. Redondo Co. Stone Cutting & Ornamental Concrete Works w railroad spur west side of MoPac. corner San Marcos and Poplar.
*** Central Lumber Co. with 2 block-long railroad spurs off west side of MoPac.
on -- between West Poplar and Rivas St.
*** W. S. Dickey Clay Mftg Co. clay pipe distributing. with railroad spur off Central Lumber lead. corner Poplar & San Marcos.
*** A. M. NcNeil Asphalt Contractor with railroad spur off Central Lumber lead. corner Rivas & San Marcos.
CROSSING Arbor Street, MoPac track curves to east off San Marcos Street ROW
*** Wilson Lumber Co. with 3 or 4 rail spurs east and west of MoPac. runs from Leal St to Perez Street.
MOPAC splits into 2 parallel lines 1 block apart through warehouse district.
***Scobey Fire Proof Storage Co. with rail spur east side of MoPac (E) Half block building buiold in trapezoid shape to accommodate railroad line. On Salada from Perez to Morales.
***Turner Gravel Co., with rail spur west side of MoPac.(E) Perez to Morales Streets.
***Carpenter Paper Co. w rail spur east of MoPac (E) corner Morales & Meridan
***Shiner-Sein Paper Co w rail spur east of MoPac (E) at Martin
***John J. Kuntz Lumber Co. adjacent to (team track?) MoPac W at N. Comal from Morales to Martin.
.
CROSS West Martin
***Furniture warehouse with rail spur east side of MoPac (W) S side Martin
***George C. Vaughn & Sons Lumber with rail spur east side of MoPac (W) S side Martin
***National Grocers Co. warehouse with rail spur east side of MoPac (E) Martin & Medina
***George Lowe Corp. egg drying plant with rail spiur e side of MoPac (E) Salinas & Medina
***Scobey Fireproof Storage Banana warehouse w rail spur e side of MoPac (E)
IGN RR car house, welding. matl storage. on MoPac (E) south of Martin
***Scobey Fireproof warehouse with rail spur east of MoPac mainline Salinas to Zavalla St.
***Custom broker with rail spur east of MoPac mainline at Zavalla St.
***Continental Oil Co. bulk distributor w rail spur west side of MoPac main
***Acme Brick Co. shares spur w Conoco w side of MoPac main
***IGN Freight station w side of MoPac main
***Railway Express Agency e side of MoPac main
Passenger train shed e side of MoPac main
Roundhouse and turntable w side oif MoPac main
Ex-MP depot MP 259.1
Here is that gorgeous IGN depot in San Antonio.
Lots and lots of industrial spurs in the few blocks south of the depot. I got this information from a Sanborn's map. If you live in a fairly large city in Texas, your public library may have a link to Texas Digital Sanborn's Maps-- I got a password from my public library where I could access it my my home computer. I also can get to Sanborn's Texas from my University library as a graduate student.
I don't have permission to copy the maps, but here is some of the information about the crowded MoPac lineside scene around 1950.
Block just south of Commerce Street
on spur east side of MoPac mainline yard:
Missouri Pacific freight station (N end of block)
Wholesale Grocery warehouse S end of MoPac frt sta bldg.
on separate pair of spurs one-half block east of yard:
Armour and Co. Cold Storage warehouse, with ammonia tank inside (N end of bldg)
Fish & frozen food cold storage, middle of cold store bldg (separate lessor?)
Aviation Coffee Co. w coffee cold storage & coffee roasting (S end of bldg)
On spur one block EAST of MoPac yd, S of Commerce to Buenavista
Alamo Fuel Co. coal & (fire)wood
Commerce Lumber Co.
Block south of Buenavista Street to Monterey
Missouri Pacific freight shed east side of yard (roofed, open side)
H. Dittinger Roller Mills flour and feed warehouse, on spurs ½ block east of MoPac yard,
north end of bldg
Cold storage in south end of same bldg.
Guenter Public Warehouse (but noted as repair garage, w storage for 50 autos), southside of Buenavista St. along rail spur west side of MoPac yard
Building material warehouse, on spur, N side of Monterey St, W of MoPac.
On spur one block EAST of MoPac yard, S of Buenavista to Monterey (end of spur from Monterey)
George C. Vaughn and Sons wholesale lumber/ planing mill
Block south of Monterey Street to Matamoras St.
Wright Oil Co. bulk & pkgd. oil dist. on spur east side of MoPac yard. n end of block
Roofing supplies warehouse, on spur east side of MoPac yd, south end of block.
Banana Supply Co of Texas, on spur, S side of Monterey, W of MoPac
Wholesale beer warehouse (?) on spur, W of MoPac ½ block S of Monterey
Philips Paper & Box Co. wholesale paper & twine, on spur, W of MoPac
Oil warehouse, on spur W of MoPac yard, N of Matamoras St.
On spurs one block EAST of MoPac yard, S of Monterey to Matamoras
Steve’s Sash & Door Co. (includes glass warehouse)
Superior Woodworking, lessee, about ¼ of block
South of Matamoras to Durango
City Public Service Board gas plant warehouse, on rail spur west side of MoPac
Wm. A. Heusinger wholesale liquor & beer warehouse, on rail spur east of MoPac
South Henke Ice & Storage, block square, on rail spur one block east of MoPac
South of Durango to San Luis
City Public Service Board gas plant & meter shop, on rail spur west side of MoPac
Mineral Fertilizer Mftg on rail spur East of MoPac
Southern Transfer & Storage Co. on rail spur one block east of MoPac
South of San Luis to San Fernando
Moncrief-Lenoir wholesale hardware on rail spur west side of MoPac
Burlap bag warehouse on rail spur east side of MoPac
Hay and grain warehouse on rail spur east side of MoPac
Crowley Feed Co wholesale feeds on rail spur east side of MoPac
Household Furniture Co, on rail spur east side of MoPac
Wholesale Electric appliance, on rail spur one block east of MoPac
R. M. Hughes & Co. Vinegar Factory, on rail spur one block east of MoPac
Saldana & Garz Wholesale Grocers. on rail spur one block east of MoPac
NOTE: South throat of MoPac downtown yard in this block
South of San Fernando to El Paso St.
“Junk warehouse”, on rail spur east side of MoPac
Wholesale produce, on rail spur one block east of MoPac
J. C. Diehlmann Co. building materials
South of El Paso to Guadalupe St.
Ed Collins Lumber Co. on rail spur west side of MoPac
Humble Oil& Refining bulk oil distributor, on rail spur one-half block east of MoPac
Kerr Lumber Co. on rail spur one-half block east of MoPac
South of Guadalupe St to Colima
Finnigan Hide Co. on rail spur west side of MoPac
Wool warehouse on rail spur one block east of MoPac
Tallow refining co. on rail spur one block east of MoPac
Hide warehouse on rail spur one block east of MoPac
(note: above 3 may have been accessed by SP from Kerrville branch?)
Just a few feet south of Colima St. MoPac CROSSED SP Kerrville branch “TOWER 109”
approximately 1 block south, wood trestle bridge over Alazar Creek. This crossing shows on the 1950 map and on a 2003 UP map. But GoogleEarth shows the track has been changed here. Instead of the ex-SP crossing the ex-MoPac here, it joins the ex-MoPac and then diverges about four blocks north of the depot, allowing abandonment of about half a mile of track. So WHEN you are modeling makes a difference.
EDIT: After posting, I checked Google Earth. NONE of these industrial spurs are here now. There is a small yard-- which had only one car in it.
If there is interest, I will continue this to the south side of San Antonio.
If you'd like to include street running and traction, keep an eye out for information on the Texas Transportation Co., which ran an electric shortline to the Pearl Brewery there in San Antonio. Great stuff. I don't know when it all shut down, but it was definitely still running in 1970, when I was there on Uncle Sam's dime.
leighant - please see my PM. If you don't receive post in the forum to let me know...I'm not sure if I'm using the PM function correctly.
leighant If there is interest, I will continue this to the south side of San Antonio.
Definitely of interest. Thank you very much.
Let me check google earth tonight and come up with some specific questions....
Some of my initial ones are:
1) where was the MKT "Sloan yard"?
2) It looks like there is an abandoned yard south of Blue Star rd, any idea what that was?
3) I need to use google earth to get street names, but it looks like there is an abandoned industrial spur running in the area where the former MKT depot was (now a hotel of some sort). No tracks now but it looks like abandoned ROW.
4) On the MoPac line across from TTM there is the Longhorn Quarry spur connecting Mopac line with the MKT line along I-35. Do you know when this was abandoned?
Thank you again!
The site of that yard is a roughly triangular area east of I-10/35, northeast of Lachappelle, west of Nogalitos St., and a little south of Cevallos St.
In case you model the 1968-and-later period, the station tracks at the former site of the beautiful old MKT depot served as a small, low-budget intermodal terminal, at least during the 1970s.
My 1983 MKT system timetable shows SLOAN at milepost 1037.5, one mile short of “San Antonio” ie the downtown station area (don’t believe the depot building existing at this date.) The timetable shows facilities as YTWDPOB: wye, water, diesel fuel, track scales, train order office, radio base station. Abandoned 1988 per Texas Transportation Museum website
http://www.txtransportationmuseum.org/TIMELINE.htm
Garyla: “In case you model the 1968-and-later period, the station tracks at the former site of the beautiful old MKT depot served as a small, low-budget intermodal terminal, at least during the 1970s.”
Former MKT station platform tracks used for tank cars. jULY 1988 view NNE from El Paso Street.
Manual-gate-controlled Level crossing MKT line to depot over SP Kerrville Sub. Gate is closed against MKT track. July 4, 1988.
Blue Star shows up on my GoogleEarth as what appears to be a private road leading to an industrial facility also labeled Blue Star. I have been able to track down the identity of the old industrial site. There is now a Blue Star Art Center in an old warehouse nearby and a “Blue Star Brewery”, apparently a microbrewery that serves food rather than an industrial scale brewery. My current GoogleEarth view shows 3 tracks with cars spotted, so it hardly seems deserted. This small yard is on the ex-SP Kerrville District about three blocks east from where it cut off from the Sunset Route mainline.
The 1983 MKT timetable shows a wye adjacent to Longhorn business track but does not show an interchange connection. A 1972 San Antonio bookmap shows the MoPac-MKT connection but street maps are not always up-to-date on rail lines.
Looking at google maps I see a big open field east of I-10/35 and north of W. Lachappelle, so I assume that's where Sloan was. It also looks like there is some abandoned ROW heading north from that area, so I assume this is heading to where the MKT depot was at Flores & Durango?
A little bit confused by a picture at the Texas Transportation Museum of the MKT depot.
http://www.txtransportationmuseum.org/MKTB.htm
Click on bird's eye view of MKT station and yard. Did MKT have more than one yard in San Antonio?
Thanks for the pictures.
leighant 2) It looks like there is an abandoned yard south of Blue Star rd, any idea what that was? Blue Star shows up on my GoogleEarth as what appears to be a private road leading to an industrial facility also labeled Blue Star. I have been able to track down the identity of the old industrial site. There is now a Blue Star Art Center in an old warehouse nearby and a “Blue Star Brewery”, apparently a microbrewery that serves food rather than an industrial scale brewery. My current GoogleEarth view shows 3 tracks with cars spotted, so it hardly seems deserted. This small yard is on the ex-SP Kerrville District about three blocks east from where it cut off from the Sunset Route mainline.
That's what I get for going by memory. The old yard I meant to ask about is at what bing maps calls East Kelly USA located east of Offutt St. (Near Quintana rd and Kelly AFB). Nearby at S. Tayman St and Lawrence Ave it looks like a transfer table and possible intermodal yard. Is this the site of a former RR yard?
leighant Just a few feet south of Colima St. MoPac CROSSED SP Kerrville branch “TOWER 109” approximately 1 block south, wood trestle bridge over Alazar Creek. This crossing shows on the 1950 map and on a 2003 UP map. But GoogleEarth shows the track has been changed here. Instead of the ex-SP crossing the ex-MoPac here, it joins the ex-MoPac and then diverges about four blocks north of the depot, allowing abandonment of about half a mile of track. So WHEN you are modeling makes a difference.
Can you describe the original route c. 1950? I assume it just ran along the east side of Comal street and connected back up at Martin street?
Re: MKT spur @ TTM
1) Do your maps indicate approximately when the Longhorn cement quarry (MKT wye) opened? Prior to 1970? 1960?
This is all very interesting. Please give me some time to digest all this information.
some questions and attempted answers:
quote: “A little bit confused by a picture at the Texas Transportation Museum of the MKT depot. Click on bird's eye view of MKT station and yard. http://www.txtransportationmuseum.org/MKTB.htm
Did MKT have more than one yard in San Antonio?”
Depends on what you call a yard. Sloan Yard, about a mile south of the passenger station was the main freight yard for through trains. It was the end points of freight trains in the 1983 employee timetable. The TTM picture of the MKT depot area shows an array of freight track about two blocks long. This is NOT a classification yard as such. It has freight station tracks for LCL and apparently some team tracks for carload shipments to be pickup by customers in trucks.
“The old yard I meant to ask about is at what bing maps calls East Kelly USA located east of Offutt St. (Near Quintana rd and Kelly AFB). Nearby at S. Tayman St and Lawrence Ave it looks like a transfer table and possible intermodal yard. Is this the site of a former RR yard?”
This is the site of what was formerly part of Kelly Air Force, with rail access off the ex-MoPac line to Corpus Christi, now redeveloped as “Port San Antonio East Kelly Railport” 350 acre facility with warehouses for transloading. shares a foreign-trade-zone designation with an air freight traffic terminal adjacent to (sharing same runway with?) nearby Lacklack Air Force Base. http://www.portsanantonio.us/StoreImages/collateral/kellyfield-pg1-2-compact.pdf
Question: Can you describe the original route c. 1950? I assume it just ran along the east side of Comal street and connected back up at Martin street?
Question about the question before attempting answer: Have we switched away from talking about the MKT to the ex-MoPac and the ex-SP? The main line of the former IGN/MoPac skirts the western edge of downtown following the same route it has always followed as far back as I know. I traced it in the description I gave several days ago as far south as crossing the ex-SP Sunset Line. I was going to continue south from there, but other questions have come up. I did not start describing the ex-SAAP/ ex-SP Kerrville line except for its crossing and connection with the MoPac. But here goes, in brief. The SAAP line which originally ran to Kerrville, and now, only about as far as Campo Stanley last I knew, comes into San Antonio from the northwest-by-north corner and runs more or less diagonally toward the south/ southeast. Until fairly recently, it curved at Martin Street to run parallel to Comal Street south for 11 blocks, one block west of the MoPac and paralleling the MoPac. At El Paso Street, it curved to go in a southeasterly-by-south direction again for two blocks, where it crossed the MoPac mainline at Colima Street. That is the situation as shown on a 2003 UP track chart. However it has been REROUTED since then. As sown on GoogleEarth, it now joins the ex-MoPac mainline at Martin Street, runs over than line until getting to where the Colima Street crossing used to be. At Colima Street, the UP main/ex-MoPac has a turnout/switch to all Kerrville District trains back onto the original alignment. The ex-SP line passes under the elevated I-35 roadway, behind a McDonald’s, crosses a small stream and then crosses the abandoned right-of-way that used to connect MKT Sloan Yard with the MKT depot. (I displayed a photo of this a few days ago...) http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/543/gatexKT_SP.jpg About one-half mile further east, it turns a bit to the south at BLUE STAR- where there is some sort of a small yard-- probably a setout point. A few blocks to the east, the Kerrville line connects to the Sunset Line. However, a 1954 map shows the Kerrville line CROSSING the Sunset Line to connect with the Rockport subdivision which ran to Floresville, Beeville, Sinton, Aransas Pass and Rockport, with Corpus Christi
For history and routes of the SA&AP, see Handbook of Texas Online: http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/SS/eqs6.html
1) Do your maps indicate approximately when the Longhorn cement quarry (MKT wye) opened? Prior to 1970? 1960? YES. My 1954 Texaco Street Map of San Antonio shows the connection between MKT, MoPac (and presumably, Longhorn quarry and cement plant.) It was three miles outside the city then, and Wurzbach Road did not run nearby.
Longhorn Cement Plant and Quarry was closed, according to a letter by a photographer who shot pictures of the location in 2007.
http://www.texasescapes.com/SouthTexasTowns/Cementville-Texas.htm
incidently...
Alamo Cement Co. formed 1880, first Portland Cement mftr west of Mississippi. Quarry abandoned became Japanese Sunken Garden in Breckenridge Park ca 1907.
Alamo changed name to San Antonio Portland Cement Co. relocated to new plant called Cementville in Alamo Hts. in 1908 (now “Quarry Market”) . Moved NOT because of depletion of quarry but because of need for railroad transportation.* Name change back to Alamo in 1979. 1981 build new “clinker” facility called “1604 plant”.
http://www.carrtracks.com/cement.htm
*need for rr transport: http://www.sanantonio.gov/sapar/japanhis.asp?res=1024&ver=true
leighantFor history and routes of the SA&AP, see Handbook of Texas Online: http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/SS/eqs6.html
Excellent website. Recommended quick reference for anything Texas.
The last time I was out that way the tracks had been pulled up north of the quarry located at Loop1604 and I-10. Now there is a shopping center sitting on the former ROW. There was some discussion of "quiet zones" along that route a few years back. During those discussions UP stated that it was already planning on abandoning that entire line within a few years.
leighant Question about the question before attempting answer: Have we switched away from talking about the MKT to the ex-MoPac and the ex-SP?
Sorry, jumping around a bit there, but yes. As you mentioned the ex-SP line had been rerouted and I was curious about the original route. Q. answered.
If you get the time, I would be interested in picking back up where you left off heading south. Thank you.
The ex SP yard is Yoakum Bend.
For excellent reference views of the entire area go to:
www.historicaerials.com
You can find aerial photos dating back into the 50's up to present.
Hey, we have been on this for one full month now.
A week or so ago, I was searching old Sanborn’s maps from 1950s, tracing the former IGN/MoPac south through the city. I posted here with Info on dozens of industrial spurs through the city. I finally got around to finishing up the southern end but didn’t find much more.
On exIGN/ exMoPac mainline just south of CROSSING exSP Sunset Line-
UNION STOCK YARDS in southeast quadrant of MP/ SP crossing.
Map shows area along SP/MoPac connection marked “full of tracks” and does not show how many or accurately show which spurs are connected to what railroad...
in southeast corner of complex is SWIFT & CO slaughterhouse and meat packing plant.
Stock Yard complex filled area between S San Marcos on East, Brazos Street on west. and came within one residential lot of Pendleton Ave on South
Just west of Brazos, exMoPac has sidings that cut off to enter Stockyards and Swift.
(ex)MoPac runs SW along Frio City Road.
Spur to Vandewall & Sons Produce Shipping just south of West Taft Road, SE of tracks
And that’s all I could find for that end of town in the 1950s.
Alamo Fuel Co wood, coal, salt
Allen Allen lumber, building materials
Asgrow Texas Co. seeds
Bain Peanut Co peanut shellers
Calavo Inc avocados
Wm Cameron Co. building materials
Celotex Corporation roofing
Century Paper Co paper supplies
City Public Service Board gas plant warehouse
City Public Service Board Leon Creek power plant
Crowley Feed Co Grain products
Cudahy Packing Co packing house products
Davidson Corp building materials
Delaware Punch bottles, syrup
East Kelly Air Force Base
Gebhardt Mexican Foods Chili products
Gillis Hood Security public warehouses
Irwin Steel Co iron & steel
Karotkin Furniture Co furniture
Kelly Construction paving contractor
Leesch Lumber Co lumber
Liberty grain co grain, mill products
McNeel A M paving materials
Mission Ice Fuel Co ice
Moncrief Lenoir steel building materials
Monterrey Iron Metal Co scrap iron
National Incorporated wholesale grocers
Nationwide Papers paper products
Nelson & Sons hides
Prasel Lumber Co building materials
Rainbo Bakery bakery products
Scobey Fireproof Storage public warehouse
Seven Up Bottling beverages
Steve Sash & Door millwork
Superior Woodwork millwork
Tambo Mftg Co road machinery
Trottner Iron Metal scrap metal
Union stockyard
Vaughn Geo C. Sons building materials
Williams Distributing Co beer
Sorry, no more detailed ino on location...
MJ4562 originally said "I would like to create a switching layout focused on the rail served industries in the San Antonio area. I was thinking of covering the area from the former Alamo Cement plant (Cementville on the former MoPac line) to the Union Stock Yards and I&GN station."
I made up a schematic of features on the 1950s IGN/ Missouri Pacific to analyze and discuss features for such a layout.
It seems a layout covering Cementville to Stockyards ought to be laid out with lengthwise portions of the layout room to make tangents for trhe Cementville scene and the downtown several blocks along the station.
Room/ layout space corners might be used to represent the very gradual curve at Olmos Basin, curve coming into the north-south industrial area somewhat north of the station, the S curve several blocks north of the station and the curve south of station near Tower 109. The curves probably could not all be oriented to curve "the right way."
Modeling the MoPac through San Antonio as seen from the WEST side of the line would put the Cementville/ Alamo Cement plant scene against the background, as seen when driving on the freeway, would put the San Antonio downtown skyline on the background, and put the georgeous IGN passenger station between the tracks and the background where it could be modeled either in full or in one-sided relief depending on available space.
I don't know what space MJ4562 has, but I am going to kick some layout planning ideas around based on these considerations.
I like that schematic. Compact enough to be manageable while still having plenty of online industry and interchanges.
leighantI don't know what space MJ4562 has, but I am going to kick some layout planning ideas around based on these considerations
I've got a spare bedroom staked out, roughly 10x12 or 12x12 and I'll most likely be working with N scale to get the most railroad in the space.
leighant-were you able to gather all that information you posted earlier from the Sanborn maps? I've checked and my local library does offer access to the sanborn maps online.
Does your 1970s switch list say anything about the cementville plant?
4merroad4man The ex SP yard is Yoakum Bend. For excellent reference views of the entire area go to: www.historicaerials.com You can find aerial photos dating back into the 50's up to present.
That is a great modelling reference. Which ex SP yard are you referring to as Yoakum Bend? The one by Blue Star St.?
leighant Hey, we have been on this for one full month now.
This whole thing has been fascinating. I had never previously considered modeling a specific geographic area or prototype. Now I'm finding that I am having as much fun researching the history of the area as playing with trains.
I've found some historical maps of san antonio online at the UT Austin library. Some show rail lines better than others, but they are workable when combined with modern street maps. The Texas Transportation Museum has been invaluable with background information on the railroads in south texas.
Answers and attempted answers to some questions and comments from MJ4562:
“Were you able to gather all that information you posted earlier from the Sanborn maps? I've checked and my local library does offer access to the sanborn maps online.”
Mostly- especially information on lineside industries. I also got information from old public timetables, employee timetables, the Official Guide, etc. Lots of etc. I have been using Sanborn maps since 1975 and they got me into studying history.
Does your 1970s switch list say anything about the cementville plant? No. It should be listed under Alamo Cement. I should explain that my document is “Southern Pacific Freight Tariff 1517-F, list of private industries located at common points on lines of Southern Pacific... and also other lines.” It gives industry and commodity information for any given “station” name (meaning not a depot building but a named point of a railroad), ONLY for places that are both located on the SP AND one other railroad. If SP doesn’t go there, it doesn’t list that town. If ONLY SP goes there, it doesn’t list that town. The tariff is made so that when a car is billed over the SP to go to a “town” where SP is not the only RR, a station agent can quickly see whether the industry is on HIS line or the other line.
“Cementville” may not have been considered part of the railroad location considered as San Antonio proper-- even though it may have been in the corporate city limits. My 1972 MoPac employees timetable shows Cementville as a business track just outside the yard limits for San Antonio, and the adjacent passing siding identified as “Adams.” Similarly, the Longhorn cement plant was not shown on the SP common points tariff. I hope this is an educated guess.
“Which ex SP yard are you referring to as Yoakum Bend? The one by Blue Star St.?”
Comment: “This whole thing has been fascinating. I had never previously considered modeling a specific geographic area or prototype. Now I'm finding that I am having as much fun researching the history of the area as playing with trains.”
“I've got a spare bedroom staked out, roughly 10x12 or 12x12 and I'll most likely be working with N scale to get the most railroad in the space.” I thought you were originally considering HO and I have been drawing a sample HO layout without knowing anything about your space. So I have been designing for a typical HO space, a 9 x 18 foot single-car garage space. I am going ahead with that, will post it in a day or two, and then try an N scale design. I think the N scale 10x12 will work better than the HO 9x18.
I cobbled together an idea for an HO layout representing the 1950s Missouri Pacific in San Antonio, Texas from Cementville to the IGN station to the Union Stockyards. This is for a 9 by 18 foot space- similar to a one-car space in the garage.
This uses "surround staging", and trying to fit this much in this space with 24" radius curves will not allow 2 big turnback loops, so..... it means a duckunder. Quack quack. Sorry about that,
I will be back in a day or two with more detailed and labeled views of the layout plan, a little explanation of design features and decisions, and a few prototype photos.
Until then, Happy Fourth of July.