General Discussion (Model Railroader)

After the wonderful job MTH did with the Class J, this will be the next engine I will buy from them.

After watching some videos of it run, as you all have, I think its amazing. But the problem is, as cool as the thing looks, I don't really know anything about it.

I guess for starters, I was wondering will it fit on my layout theme of basically the PRR and N&W in Cincinnati. Would it make sense to ever see a prr T1 crossing paths with the Streamlined Empire State Express.

I assume that most NYC engines ran between New York City and Chicago, am I correct? Were stops also made in cincinatti?

I'm bringing this up, because, for instance, as sleek as the New Haven I-5 looks, I have thought it over and decided it would be best not to get one because it simply didn't go anywhere near my monster PRR engines. It would not fit my layout whatsoever.

Would you ever see a prr T1 anywhere near the streamlined empire state express or the dreyfuss 20th century limited?

I really don't know anything about the NYC, didn't find wikipedia or other sites about the engine I want too helpful. Considering the expense of another MTH engine, I really wanted to ask people on here if I should go for it? I really have a thing for art deco locos, but I don't want this to be an impulse purchase.

 Take a look at this page !

Sir Madog:

 Take a look at this page !

The niagara is a great engine, but I will never buy the Blue Line version after having multiple problems with this line. It really is a nice engine, and basically is the equivalent of the PRR T1 duplex. If MTH released one, I would definately buy it.

I looked up the J3a hudson link on the wikpedia page, doesn't really say much about where the Empire Express went, or if it traveled in close proximity to the big prr steamers of crestline, Ohio.

I'm really looking for an art deco loco, although if a Paragon Niagara showed up on ebay for a reasonable price, I might consider getting one. This used to be my first choice for a NYC central loco, until I saw MTH's new releases.

I did find a painting on google images of an early fully skirted T1 next to the Dreyfus Hudson. If this happened in real life, I have no idea

http://www.historicrail.com/product_info.po?ID=4093&product=Art&category=railroads&subcategory=North%20American

But I'm not sure if the Empire State Express would have covered the same territory as the Dreyfus Hudson.

rjake,

Yes, the New York Central's primary (or waterlevel) route was between New York City and Chicago; going through cities such as Albany, Buffalo, and Cleveland along the way.  There were also routes to other large cities like Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and St. Louis (Big Four).

I know for sure the Niagaras and Mohawks traveled to Cincinnati.  However, I can't say for sure that the ESE or Dreyuss Hudsons made it down there.  I'll look in my NYC steam book this evening to see if I can't find anything more definitive for you.

Personally, if I were to buy an "Art Deco" locomotive, I would wait for the BLI 20th Century Dreyfuss Hudson, which is due for release next month:

Now, whether the December release is still a reality is anyone's guess.  The above pre-production picture is encouraging but there still hasn't been any update about the specifics of the locomotive on BLI's web site.  However, even if it's release goes beyond December, I'm still willing to wait.  I waited 28 months for my BLI L-4 Mohawk and glad I did.  Despite the fact that I had an initial problem with mine, BLI fixed it and it's quite a VERY nice locomotive.

About the Empire State Express.  A friend of mine bought an MTH ESE recently and told me the following in an e-mail:

"Striking model for the first time viewer.  Stainless steel looks believable but the level of detail is not there."

Having seen his MTH NYC L-3a Mohawk a few months ago, I can believe that

I am glad that MTH decided to release this unique and lesser known version of the NYC Hudsons.  Still - given the choice - I would wait for the BLI Dreyfuss Hudson.  IMHO, I think it will be a nicer looking locomotive than either of MTH's offerings.

Tom

The Empire State Express ran from Harmon (End of Electrified Territory in NYC) to Buffalo, later extended to Cleveland. Normally one would not see the T1 and the streamlined Hudsons together except on leaving Chicago thru Englewood Ill. where their tracks diverged with the PRR going southeast to Fort Wayne and Crestline and the NYC following the Northern Indiana border to Toledo and Lake Erie.

I myself would wait for the BLI version as I want nothing to do with lawsuit happy MTH.

Rick

tstage:

rjake,

Yes, the New York Central's primary (or waterlevel) route was between New York City and Chicago; going through cities such as Albany, Buffalo, and Cleveland along the way.  There were also routes to other large cities like Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and St. Louis (Big Four).

I know for sure the Niagaras and Mohawks traveled to Cincinnati.  However, I can't say for sure that the ESE or Dreyuss Hudsons made it down there.  I'll look in my NYC steam book this evening to see if I can't find anything more definitive for you.

Personally, if I were to buy an "Art Deco" locomotive, I would wait for the BLI 20th Century Dreyfuss Hudson, which is due for release next month:

Now, whether the December release is still a reality is anyone's guess.  The above pre-production picture is encouraging but there still hasn't been any update about the specifics of the locomotive on BLI's web site.  However, even if it's release goes beyond December, I'm still willing to wait.  I waited 28 months for my BLI L-4 Mohawk and glad I did.  Despite the fact that I had an initial problem with mine, BLI fixed it and it's quite a VERY nice locomotive.

About the Empire State Express.  A friend of mine bought an MTH ESE recently and told me the following in an e-mail:

"Striking model for the first time viewer.  Stainless steel looks believable but the level of detail is not there."

Having seen his MTH NYC L-3a Mohawk a few months ago, I can believe that

I am glad that MTH decided to release this unique and lesser known version of the NYC Hudsons.  Still - given the choice - I would wait for the BLI Dreyfuss Hudson.  IMHO, I think it will be a nicer looking locomotive than either of MTH's offerings.

Tom

Thanks for your input. I agree the dreyfuss hudson put out by BLI looks slightly better. However have you seen the driver lights on the MTH version? I gotta get one of those, I think the level of detailing on the ESE is very good, plus I love MTH's coal load. Also, Protosound 3 can't be beaten, I have never heard more realistic sound, and I'm a sucker for their smoke units.

The BLI engine that I am really waiting for to come out is the Q2. ETA is supposedly November, but some sites say February 2010? I sure hope not.

I really want this engine. If this came out soon, I would save my money for this one over the MTH ESE (although its still a beautiful loco.)

rjake4454:

However have you seen the driver lights on the MTH version? I gotta get one of those, I think the level of detailing on the ESE is very good, plus I love MTH's coal load. Also, Protosound 3 can't be beaten, I have never heard more realistic sound, and I'm a sucker for their smoke units.

Well, rjake - sounds like you've already answered your own question then.

Tom

rjake4454:

I assume that most NYC engines ran between New York City and Chicago, am I correct? Were stops also made in cincinatti?

The NYC trains that went to Cincinatti ran south from Chicago on the Illinois Central line to Kankakee behind IC power to the NYC line at Kankakee.  This NYC line ran to Cincinatti via Indianapolis Indiana.  The James W Riley was the name train on that line behind an non streamlined Hudson.  Cincinatti was the end of the line for that branch of the NYC so all trains stopped there.

CZ 

dti406:

Normally one would not see the T1 and the streamlined Hudsons together except on leaving Chicago thru Englewood Ill. where their tracks diverged with the PRR going southeast to Fort Wayne and Crestline and the NYC following the Northern Indiana border to Toledo and Lake Erie.

I myself would wait for the BLI version as I want nothing to do with lawsuit happy MTH.

Rick

The streamlining on the NYC hudsons was removed in 1945 shortly after a grade crossing incident.  The production PRR T1's started to arrive in 1946 so having the BLI later modified T1and on of the Dreyfuss Hudson racing out of Chicago is only a dream, but this is HO and we can do that with the modelers license. 

There might be pictures of the early prototype T1 and a Dreyfuss Hudson racing out of town prior to the removal of the streamlining.

 CZ 

CAZEPHYR:

dti406:

Normally one would not see the T1 and the streamlined Hudsons together except on leaving Chicago thru Englewood Ill. where their tracks diverged with the PRR going southeast to Fort Wayne and Crestline and the NYC following the Northern Indiana border to Toledo and Lake Erie.

I myself would wait for the BLI version as I want nothing to do with lawsuit happy MTH.

Rick

 

The streamlining on the NYC hudsons was removed in 1945 shortly after a grade crossing incident.  The production PRR T1's started to arrive in 1946 so having the BLI later modified T1and on of the Dreyfuss Hudson racing out of Chicago is only a dream, but this is HO and we can do that with the modelers license. 

There might be pictures of the early prototype T1 and a Dreyfuss Hudson racing out of town prior to the removal of the streamlining.

 CZ 

Are you aware of any brass models of the earyl prototype T1 in HO? I really want one.

I know there are several in O, put out by MTH (die cast of course) and 3rd rail.

That particular Hudson was designed specifically for the Empire State Express which ran from Grand Central Station to Buffalo. The Hudson took over at Harmon from the electrics which took it to and from GCS. It was designed to run with a new fleet of fluted stainless steel cars, each named for a New York governor. The NYC scheduled its inaugural run for this train in late 1941 as a special for the news media and selected a Sunday figuring it would be a slow news day which might give them front page coverage in the New York newspapers. The train was one hour out of GCS when they received word that the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor. Needless to say, they didn't get their front page coverage.

rjake4454:

Are you aware of any brass models of the earyl prototype T1 in HO? I really want one.

I know there are several in O, put out by MTH (die cast of course) and 3rd rail.

Several of the early T1's have been produced in HO.  Key has made them along with Gem and probably some other importers like Challenger also.    The old Gem's need some tuning up like replacing the motor, but they looked fairly good.   The Key is a very nice model and they tend to run like a watch.  The Challenger if you can find one, is very nice but you will need lots of money for those.

 You can view the original 5500 as built below.

CZ

 http://www.brasstrains.com/product_detail.php?p=013400 

rjake4454:

I assume that most NYC engines ran between New York City and Chicago, am I correct?

The Dreyfuss steam locomotives hauled the 20th Century from Harmon NY to Chicago.  They used electrics out of New York City to Harmon NY, about thirty miles north of the city.   Steam that had the PT4 tender pulled the trains to Chicago with only one coaling stop.  They used track pans to pick up water fairly often and the 40 tons of coal allowed the run between Harmon and Chicago with one fuel stop.  The NYC ran via Albany, Utica, Syracuse Rochester and Buffalo to get to Ohio and Cleveland on the way to Chicago.   They had many branch type lines feeding into the main line which I believe to be the NY to Chicago run water level route.  

 CZ

jecorbett:

The NYC scheduled its inaugural run for this train in late 1941 as a special for the news media and selected a Sunday figuring it would be a slow news day which might give them front page coverage in the New York newspapers. The train was one hour out of GCS when they received word that the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor. Needless to say, they didn't get their front page coverage.

That day turned out to be the worst day they could have picked, but who would have known at the time.   I wonder if the Public Relations people got fired or demoted?

To put that in context with today's news, it would be like a new airline starting up on September 11, 2001 out of Boston or Newark.   No front page coverage and you just don't want to be there.

CZ

CAZEPHYR:

rjake4454:

Are you aware of any brass models of the earyl prototype T1 in HO? I really want one.

I know there are several in O, put out by MTH (die cast of course) and 3rd rail.

 

 

Several of the early T1's have been produced in HO.  Key has made them along with Gem and probably some other importers like Challenger also.    The old Gem's need some tuning up like replacing the motor, but they looked fairly good.   The Key is a very nice model and they tend to run like a watch.  The Challenger if you can find one, is very nice but you will need lots of money for those.

 You can view the original 5500 as built below.

CZ

 http://www.brasstrains.com/product_detail.php?p=013400 

 

 

 

 

Awesome, thanks. I see the sharper nose and the portholes.

Interesting though, on the Key model, the keystone on the side of the tender seems to be in the same position as the production version, just like the BLI one. Its also de skirted. The other detail I noticed is that the early prototype had no trainphone antenna whereas the Key one does. I'm still confused about this because MTH release two in O gauge, both based on the prototype, the PS1 version has no antenna whereas the second run has it, just like the Key model.

I thought the prototype had a much larger PRR logo, not centered above the Pennsylvania script, but rather to the right of it.

Like this:

I have seen the Challenger S-1 and its a beautiful piece, the best one I have seen.

I love these brass HO models, but for that price I can't see myself ever getting one, I might as well get a 3rd rail brass engine for the same price, plus sound.