General Discussion (Model Railroader)

Every car I build now gets Kadee #58's and semi-scale wheels.

Sheldon,

10 to 20 cars.

I freely admit that I might look at things differently if I ran, what for me would be, monster trains of 50 cars and had the track grades that some folks have.

On the other hand, I have run trains that size and larger on my friend's old layout back in the 1970's.  We also managed to snap more than one Kadee knuckle or shank - thanks to less than stellar trackwork.  It'd make my friend quite angry when that happened.

Mark Gosdin

I have noticed that the Proto Max couplers sometimes have a small burr on the coupler face that prevents them from coupling at extremely slow speeds.  I had to couple them at a faster speed and the car would roll significantly which didn't look very prototypical.  That is why everything I own has KDs or is going to get them in the near future.

Just my casual observations.

 Hi,

I used to put McHenrys on all freight cars.  While being between layouts some of the cars were stored on their side for about a year.  This caused the little plastic whisker to weaken.  So when the cars were put back in service they would not couple, even worse while going down an incline with the train pushing on such a coupler it would uncouple once there was no more pushing action from the cars behind.  Kadees were never an issue for this and if then just replace the little spring and everything is good.

Plastic couplers also do not like long freights on my helix with 2.2% incline.  Trust me pull apart situations can get really nasty really quickly. 

Hope this helps.

Frank

kog1027:

Over on the Atlas forums they are talking up Segents, which are nice but don't interoperate with Kadee's or Clones.

For what little it's worth, I'm moving my cars to Sergents. I find they look better, and I've had lot better luck using them then the Kadees and knock offs.

I can see how the tool could pull a handle though. I also don't like that the tools seem to shatter on my bare concrete floor, always breaking in two when I drop them.

There is a lot of resistance to the Sergents from folks. Some of them are legitimate concerns

- It would be a pain and expensive to convert a large fleet of rolling stock,

- it would be a bummer to not use your rolling stock in interchange traffic with other modelers if that's your thing, and

- you do need to be able to reach the models, which makes layouts that are not designed that way much more difficult.

Some of the other concerns seem more related to a general resistance to change, and similar in tone to some of the classic model railroading arguements.

I had the opportunity to speak to Frank Sergent about the strength of the Sergents in practice. Here is his reply - and note that he ok'd my posting his comments in public forums. They seem plenty strong enough.

Seventy cars that weigh 3 oz would need about [70 cars X 3 oz/car X 0.01) =
] 2.1 oz of pull on straight and level track. That will require one average
HO diesel to pull it. This isn't even starting to stress the couplers. No
problem.

Seventy cars that weight 3 oz going around a reasonable curve, and up a 3%
grade will need about [70 cars X 3 oz/car X (0.01 + 0.02 + 0.03) = ] 8.4 oz
of pull. That's about 3 decent engines to pull it. Again, we aren't
stressing the couplers at all.

Ten average diesels all pulling together will against a nail driven in the
middle of the track will start spinning their wheels at about [(10 X 3.5 oz)
= ] 35 oz of pull. The couplers will feel that for sure, but this is still
no problem.

Twenty really good diesels all pulling against the nail can generate [(20 X
4.5 oz) = ] 90 oz of pull before the wheels start spinning. That's enough to
make me nervous, but still below any sort of failure point as long as the
couplers are assembled correctly.

Forty really good diesels all pulling against the nail will generate 180 oz
of drawbar pull. That's just silly.

I don't think 70 cars would be a problem at all.

Back when Railmodel Journal was still alive, they printed a Performance
Summary of locomotives in what seemed like every issue that was pretty
useful. It gave tractive force measurements for all sorts of locomotives.

Thanks,
Frank

Hi again!

Well, it looks like my situation is pretty common.  My "layout ready cars" have been off track for the last year while construction is taking place.  Therefore, what was once an acceptable "rubber" coupler has now weakened. 

I've got an excellent supply of various KDs, and will replace the faulty "other" couplers as needed.  Meanwhile, I've got a lot of layout construction ahead of me and these bad order cars will sit in a box until I can get to them.

By the way, I've also noticed that the handful of MDC (model die casting) cars I built from kits tend to be more troublesome than say the Athearn or various high end kit cars. 

Thanks all,

Mobilman44

Scarpia:

For what little it's worth, I'm moving my cars to Sergents. I find they look better, and I've had lot better luck using them then the Kadees and knock offs.

I can see how the tool could pull a handle though. I also don't like that the tools seem to shatter on my bare concrete floor, always breaking in two when I drop them.

There is a lot of resistance to the Sergents from folks. Some of them are legitimate concerns

- It would be a pain and expensive to convert a large fleet of rolling stock,

- it would be a bummer to not use your rolling stock in interchange traffic with other modelers if that's your thing, and

- you do need to be able to reach the models, which makes layouts that are not designed that way much more difficult.

Some of the other concerns seem more related to a general resistance to change, and similar in tone to some of the classic model railroading arguements.

I had the opportunity to speak to Frank Sergent about the strength of the Sergents in practice. Here is his reply - and note that he ok'd my posting his comments in public forums. They seem plenty strong enough.

I certianly understand the appeal of the Sergent coupler. And you do seem to understand many of the reasons others are not interested in them. But I would like to comment about the "resisance to change" comment.

Professionally I am a Residential Architectual Desginer and Residential Historic Restoration Consultant. In what I do, and how I see the world, there is a lot of "change" done just for the sake of change, not because something is better, but just because it is new, or different, or sometimes because it is cheaper or easier.

Applying that to this question, one must first undrstand the desired goals. Sargent couplers meet a specific set of high detail, close up, prototype operation goals very well. Because they do that so well, they fall short of the oposite set of goals, casual coupling from a distance being the main one, which you did point out.

Many modelers who are very prototype detail or operation focused assume that all or most modelers would desire these same features should technology and resources allow. This is simply not true. Many modelers are more casual OR feel that however detail/prototype oriented they are, changing their goals and methods which each new idea/product is not practical.

I have said this about a number of aspects of the hobby. I have been doing this a long time, I have lots of "stuff". I'm not going to "reinvent" my modeling goals with each new wave of product, nor am I going to "replace" large precentages of high quality products just because something slightly better comes along.

And, I must say, over the 40 years I have been in this hobby, I have become more casual, not more intense about how I approach it. So, while I understand and repect others interest in these "advancements", I also full understand those who are happy with the "old" ways.

I still run DC, but with radio throttles,

My locos don't have onboard sound,

All my couplers are standard head Kadee's,

All my track is to NMRA standards,

All my wheelsets are .110" wide,

I keep weathering to a very light minimum,

But I consider the following standards desired or prefered:

Most of my freight trucks are sprung and metal,

My curves are large (36" and bigger),

The diaphragms on my passenger cars touch all the time,

My train lengths are realistic for my era (30-50 cars or longer),

Signaling is essential for Class I operations,

and reaching all these goals will not be interuped by new ones.

However I do applaud your willingness to test this new product and its application. 

Sheldon

 Kadees all the way.   I've had more then one of the plastic clones get squished in storage or the plastic spring lose it's spring.  The new clones with the metal springs work OK, I still find them no match for KDs.

My passenger cars still have the clones though.  They get KDs as they cycle through the shop, and after the freight cars get their KDs.  The IHC cars have the McHenery snap in replacements, and will probably never get KDs before I Evil-bay them.

Nick

Sheldon, thanks for your reply.

Note that my comment on resistance wasn't in any way aimed at any individual, including yourself, but instead at distinct trends I've seen in threads throughout my limited 2 years in the hobby, and participation on this forum.

I have in that limited time gotten the impression that replies to inquires are often derived from not as much fact, as they are from personal impression. To have an open conversation on knuckle couplers in HO scale and not include Sergents, or to have them dismissed out hand as being change for change's sake, does the reader in someways an injustice.

I prefer to put the options forth, hopefully without bias and with some background and let the indivdual make decisions that work best for them. In this case were someone to consider the fix to their problem by replacing all of their couplers with Kadees, it would simultaneously be a good time to consider other paths if applicable.

As you noted, despite being a fan of the Sergents, I readily acknowledge the negatives, and think it's important they're shared right along with the positives.

Per you comments on change as a whole, please note that I honestly don't care what or how you choose to pursue the hobby. What I do care about, and greatly appreciate, is your willingness to share your experiences with the path's that you have chosen, as that information is very useful.

For the record, I model in HO, am now converting my locos to DCC with Sound, now use Sergents, now hand lay my track, am moving away from insulation foam scenery, and participate regularly in operating sessions on an purposely un-sceniced highrail American Flyer S scale layout, using both AC and DC block controls. Kind of an interesting shotgun blast of old and new.

Cheers!

 Just to be fair I should point out that I've tried Sergent couplers. For my needs I found them lacking. I have areas on my layout where I do coupling/uncoupling operations that are not within easy reach. In these areas the Sergent couplers are impractical as they have to be aligned by hand and uncoupled by hand with the uncoupling wand. Another problem is that my track is not level but has rises and dips that cause the coupler heads to ride up and down against each other. This isn't a problem with the standard head Kadee couplers or the Kadee shelf couplers but was a major point of heartburn with the Sergents as they would separate in these areas. It is for these reasons that I will not be converting my locos and rolling stock to Sergents and not because of some kind of resistance to change.

Scarpia,

I too have only been on this forum for only a few years, but as noted, have been in the hobby for over 40.

I did not take your comments in any negative light, or think they were directed at anyone in particular, I just wanted to be a little more clear myself and see your position more clearly. So thank you for the thoughtful response and for sharing your modeling interests.

All to often on here, as you have noted the "resistance to change" crowd, there is also the "you HAVE to do it the latest, greatest, most expensive way" crowd.

I've been called all kinds of names (backward, stupid, neaderthal, afraid) because I don't want DCC or sound and speak up in favor of DC (even though I was installing the first industrial programable controllers while many of these guys where still in grade school).

And I've been told my Kadee trucks with Intermountain wheel sets simply can't work dispite the fact that I have hundreds of freight cars that work fine with them.

So, respect and balance are due on both sides, and your post certainly was that. Thank you again for your orginal thoughts and your reply to me.

Sheldon

 Oh God...where is my shovel?

Sheldon, #58s work just fine if you have good trackwork.  Heck, at our FreeMo meets, we run 100+ coal trains with #58s installed on every car with narry a disconnect.

Furthermore, Sergent couplers have a greater friction area in the knuckle....hence they resist disconnects more than the oversized #5s.  

If you are really concerned with disconnects, the a small amount of bullfrog snot on the inside of the knuckle will fight vertical displacements during running.

Sergents are not for everyone, especially not for Sheldon.  However, they ARE more realistic than anything thay Kadee has ever produced or will ever produce.  As someone who is striving for realistic operations, I cannot just glance over my coupler choice or my control choice.

David B

Hi from Belgium,

Even I model in Nscale I use only MT/Kadee couplers body mounted on all my freight cars.

Atlas is offering his freight cars with, I beleive Mc Henry couplers,but  they are'nt as smooth as the MT coupler and second they don't couple or uncouple as easily as MT couplers.

On most front of my steam power I mount Zscale 905  Mt coupler because they are easier to mount on steam front deck. They work very well with Nscale MT couplers if they are at corret height.

So as MT advice, Kadee and MT coupler (the same manufacturer at the origin) are far the Cadillac of the coupler.

Marc

davidmbedard:

 Oh God...where is my shovel?

Sheldon, #58s work just fine if you have good trackwork.  Heck, at our FreeMo meets, we run 100+ coal trains with #58s installed on every car with narry a disconnect.

Furthermore, Sergent couplers have a greater friction area in the knuckle....hence they resist disconnects more than the oversized #5s.  

If you are really concerned with disconnects, the a small amount of bullfrog snot on the inside of the knuckle will fight vertical displacements during running.

Sergents are not for everyone, especially not for Sheldon.  However, they ARE more realistic than anything thay Kadee has ever produced or will ever produce.  As someone who is striving for realistic operations, I cannot just glance over my coupler choice or my control choice.

David B

David, I said NOTHING about #58's disconnecting under any circumstance and have no problem with Sergents for those who want that level of detail and involement with coupling and uncoupling.

You conveniently forgot my very positive and supportive comments when you posted your testing of the sergent coupler.

You, because of our past, are applying other comments from other posters in this thread to me and trying to twist my words.

MY ONLY COMMENT ABOUT SEMI SCALE COUPLERS IS ABOUT AUTOMATIC COUPLING GATHERING RANGE (side to side alignement when approaching each other) - not a word about their reliablity in staying coupled or problems with vertical alignment - that was someone else. Re read the thread.

I don't personally use #58's for two reasons, with NMRA track and wheel standards, combined with side play in trucks from various manufacturers, there is a much greater chance of the couplers not being enough in line to couple automaticly.

AND, I do not care for how they interact with the regular head coupler, they don't couple as easily as either head does with its own kind, AND I have no intention of replacing all the couplers on 400 pieces of rolling stock, even now that Kadee does make enough different shanks to accomplish that, which where not available until very recently.

AND, I'm sure you don't have any problems with #58"s on EVERY car, but I'm not the only person on this forum with the opinion that the different head sizes and different brands don't play well together.

So, as explained before, I "get" all this new stuff, and am quite happy to stay with what I have. But I quess if you don't already have 400 freight cars its easy to make the choice to go with the "latest and greatest" when you do buy a few.

Sheldon