Toy train operating and collecting

Picked up a dozen 4040 Block Signals as Right-Of-Way Industries was going out of business (over 10 years ago at YORK).  The signals work in tandem with a 14 post spot relay (#404026), and an isolated section of 3-rail track.

The above photo shows the CPL signal, with red, green, and black wires.  On the package schematic, the black wire from the signal is to go ground.  Green wire to post 4, red to post 6.  Jumper wire from post 12 to 14, and 12vac red to pos, 13 black neg then to isolated section of track. 

Problem I'm having is I was told the original schematic was off, and black wire from signal should go to isolated track.  Doing this, light goes from yellow to green when powered up.  But when you hook black wire from post 13 to ground, it snaps to red, and won't change.  Even when wired according to schematic, as soon as you engage post 13, it snaps to red, and won't change.

Suggestions...

Fife,

        I am working on a wiring diagram right now for you. I'll post it in a few minutes.

Fife,

         Here is the diagram. Let me know if you have any questions.

I don't think that's going to work.  The NO and NC contacts are always isolated from each other.  There must be a common terminal missing from the relay symbol.

Bob,

          Thanks for catching that.

Fife,

        Connect the common terminal that Bob mentioned to the uninsulated outside rail.

I may try your option, Jim, but right now I'm wired to the power pack accessories terminal. That way when I turn on my MTH Z4000, the signals come to life, first yellow, then green. Your way apparently seems to only work when train is throttled up.  Am I wrong?

Fife,

        That is correct. If you want it to be independent of track power, you could use one of the infared controllers such as the Lionel 153IR, MTH ITAD, or the scale MTH ITAD. They would make installing and wiring the siganl much easier than using a relay and insulated track section.

Old school...that's how I roll.

I'm gonna try to use your schematic (BTW, thank you), but I also want to use the hardware I have on hand.

Fife,

         Are you using the Z4000 to power both that track and the signal? If so, you can connect the outside rail of that track to a black post on the Z4000, then instead of connecting the power wire from the relay to the center rail, connect it to one of the red fixed voltage posts on the Z4000. That should give a constant 10V or 14V to the relay depending on what posts you selected.

Yes, the Z4000 is powering the signals.  My problem is coming up when I attach the ground wire from post 13 on the spot relay.  My problem may lay with the red signal wire, and I haven't had the chance to test your schematic.  I'm a little unclear as to the Normally Open/Normally Closed as it applies to my particular relays.

Looks like a little more trial and error...

Fife,

         Normally Open would be for the red signal when the train passes over the insulated section and activates the relay. Normally Closed is for the green signal to be lit when there is nothing passing over the insulated track section. This would be the default state of the relay. Is there any info marked on that relay that you have? If we could get a pinout, this would be much easier.

    14  x  13

12   11   10   9

 8     7    6    5

 4      3    2    1

These are how the numbers run on the spot relay (photo at top).

What is a spot relay?

This thing looks like a 4 pole, double throw relay, with maybe posts 1, 2, 3, and 4 being normally closed, 5,6, 7, and 8, being commons, and 9, 10, 11, and 12, being normally open - based on your description of the original instructions.  Probably posts 1, 5, and 9 work together, then posts 2, 6, and 10, then posts 3, 7, and 11, then posts 4,8, and 12 - four switches activated by one relay coil.

I would confirm this by checking for continuity between posts 4 and 8 and no continuity between posts 8 and 12 with no power across posts 13 and 14.  With power across posts 13 and 14, there should be continuity between posts 8 and 12, none between 8 and 4.

If the continuity checks go as expected, here is what I'd try:

Power to post 8, and 13.  This could be either from the center rail or a seperate power supply or the auxillary terminals on your transformer.

Post 14 to the insulated rail.

Black wire from the signal to ground or an un-insulated outside rail.

Green wire  from the signal to post 4 - assuming this leads to the green light in the signal.

Red wire from the signal to post 12 - assuming this leads to the red light in the signal.

General question - if you use a seperate transformer for power to the signal, does it have to be in phase with the track power, espically if you are using the outside rail as ground?

Good luck.

I had the same impression of the relay terminals, but was hesitant to try to describe it because of his repeated use of the word "spot", which is still unexplained.  When I Googled "spot relay", I got a lot of hits for "SPDT relay".  It obviously isn't that; but he is using only one pole; so maybe "spot" is a misreading of the type of relay that the instructions call for.

We don't know whether this is an AC or DC relay.  If we can get past the "spot" mystery, it might be good to establish that.

I have been reluctant to give any prescription for wiring also because the signal seems to have 3 aspects, from the mention of a yellow indication, but only 3 wires to it.  So there must be something other than simple lamps inside.  If it were just lamps, I would have given my usual plug for a relayless control-rail circuit.

As for the separate transformer, it doesn't need to be in phase.  In fact, if it is out of phase some of the return current will cancel the track current and actually reduce the voltage drop along the rails (slightly).  DC can also be used with a control rail.