General Discussion (Model Railroader)

Barry, I have BLI's earlier Paragon T1 Duplex.  Its two outer drivers are flanged and the middle two are blind.  I can get mine around 22" curves, but it's a weird event, lemme tell ya.  Note that BLI included a pair of flanged drivers for those who wanted all flanged axles.

On BLI's list about a year ago someone stated that he could get his through true #4 snap switches that he used in his yard....flanged.  You can imagine my reply; something about excrement from a male bovine.

-Crandell

A couple of points from a modeler (not a collector) of PRR.  I've wanted a Q2 for awhile as a "special occasion" train.  My only option was obscure, older brass versions well outside of my price range that are DC and without sound.  I'm not paying $1,800.00 for that.

Needless to say, I thought to myself "Why would any mainstream manufacturer make an affordable, up-to-date Q2?  It had such a short running life in comparison to other engines that there probably aren't many people who would want it."  

Besides I thought to myself, whoever did manufacture such an engine would be flamed for being a "sellout" to the collectors or ignoring the needs and wants of the hordes of modelers who wanted 2-8-0's and camelbacks.

So, BLI made my wishlist item (surprise, surprise).  Flaming ensues on boards as I figured would happen based on my watching boards.  I'm happy though.  I'll plunk my $600 hard-earned dollars down for it, just like I plunked my cash down for the M1b, the T1 and the J's. 

I am curious about how the engine will work on 22" curves but I was surprised when I got the T-1 to run on 18" curves.  Granted, it's ugly but in a tunnel, who cares?

As an analogy, I wouldn't personally buy a camelback even if it was exquisite and sold for $1.00.  Others would.  However, I wouldn't get on the camelback thread though and complain that they were making those instead of the Q2.  I'm just making a couple observations.

The point I'm trying to make is that we all model different eras, different lines and we have our personal favorites and our dislikes.  It's foolishness to complain about any manufacturer making an engine that meets the needs and wants of a segment of the overall market.  Model railroading needs more positive support.  It doesn't need an orthodoxy about what is right or wrong.

It may be foolish (although I don't happen to think so...), but the point is that some fellows who would love to be able to buy some affordable RTR trains-that-they-could-really-use are not having their desires or needs met.  Not everyone models the Pennsy or the UP.  A few typical 2-8-X from other roads would, I am sure, be snapped up if BLI or Atlas or P2K made them and they looked halfways true to each road name offered.

Don't get me wrong...I am a happy camper these glory days of Pennsy modelling/collecting/just having fun, but I feel for the many, many other guys who could use a darned break for a change!!!  I would love to read of the enthusiasm and excitement from others if, once the UP 9000 and Q2 and Y6b are out of the way, BLI would take a risk and produce a Harriman Pacific for Ray Breyer and others who would love to get their mitts on one.

C'mon, BLI, throw these many fellas a bone!!!

-Crandell

selector:

... BLI would take a risk and produce a Harriman Pacific for Ray Breyer and others who would love to get their mitts on one.

-Crandell

Crandell: ---How far out did the T1 come out at the side? If it is anything like what these template pieces gave me I'd be definitely thinking 'Static Display' only.

If one examines how close one lays a double main in parallel on an 22"--or any radii, for that matter-- consider the issue that would ensue if you run the Q2 and any other lokie in opposite directions---meet on the straights and NOT on any curve---

Barry: 

Maybe not quite as terrifying, but I have non-parallel double track on my mainline (kinda/sorta like SP's route between Rocklin and Colfax) but on one section, I do have a passing track on a curve on my eastbound main.  The inside radius is 34" the outside radius is 36".  Even with those fairly generous radii, I do not DARE run one of my articulateds on the inside track to bypass a train on the outside.  It all has to be done the opposite, with a NON-ARTCIULATED loco on the inside track, and even then I do it very slowly with my fingers crossed, LOL! 

I know for sure I couldn't do it with a non-articulated T-1 and an S-2, either way.  Even on those radii. 

Tom  

Barry, it is quite remarkable.  On my 24" minimums, the "inner hang" along the midpoint of the boiler is an eye-opener, something like 3/4" from the inside rail..  Oddly, the overhang outboard of curves is not a problem with this engine.  In fact, any surgery that I have done since inserting all my portals was when I began to run my Rivarossi Allegheny.  That thing hangs wwaaaaaayyy out there.  The top rear cab corner caught on one portal, and the large engineer's injector overflow scraped the ground goop in a dozen places where nothing else seemed to come close.  More surgery.

-Crandell

Even if these were done in N scale this would be my concern. Outside of the collector with the "But it looks good!!" thing going, the mainlines' trackage would have to be designed in such a manner as to mitigate the odd (non)articulations that these large locomotives bring to any layout to begin with. The question then is who had thought of these aspects? And if not, why not? Wouldn't these belong to the slate of design issues that one uses to bring forth good product?

Then my own frigging around trying out this cnc milling machine that a friend of mine and I picked up got me into thinking more about these odd ducks that are showing up. ACCH!! More questions-----

I'm thrilled that BLI is releasing the Q2, I hope the S1 is next. I'm a collector, I would gladly run these expensive, beautiful trains on any layout, mine being relatively small. As someone mentioned earlier, apparently the distinction between a modeler and a collector is that the latter cares about the vintage retro looking engines more than making a layout exceptionally prototypical, I would have to agree. Remember only about 10-15 years ago when locos like the prr j1 or t1 were practically impossible to find by any manufacturer? I recall walking into my LHS with my dad when I was a kid then, and all they had were small diesels lacking in detail, with the old devil headlight, or whatever it was called. The kind of f3 diesels that had no windshields and a shiny bulb glaring out the hollow shell. Again, nothing wrong with these, my dad bought me one for $40 dollars back then and I loved it as a kid. Not even saying these are bad pieces for adult model railroaders, but there were no higher end engines back then if I remember correctly. The only quality steams were brass, but all were unpainted, and extremely expensive. Not to mention no sound. 

I feel that BLI is definately moving in the right direction with this, just my opinion. I couldn't be happier about hearing this news today. This company is really what pulled me back into the hobby. The first time I held a BLI paragon C&O T1 2-10-4 in my hands, I can't even describe the feeling, and that whistle! I couldn't believe that a company was finally releasing such excellent collector pieces in such a small scale. It was like holding a high end lionel steam engine in my hands for at least 1/3 the price, and not only that, it actually ran on two rail track, something that I always wanted to experience. An absolutely beautiful piece of machinery.

I feel that companies like athearn among others have always provided the average modeler with a decent selection of other more 'standard' products to run on more realistic layouts, varying from both extremely accessible to somewhat expensive, whereas BLI has become the company collectors (even amateur ones) like myself turn to. BLI makes models that are practically museum quality for HO. If they weren't around, who else would do this? And growing up around Pennsylvania, this is definately my company, although its good to know they provide other lines as well for those who live in other areas. But a company whose preference is for Pennsy, I can't complain, infact I encourage it. But BLI is definately also about variety. What other company makes such beautiful Norfolk and Western steamers? Or such amazing zephyr streamliners?

Not trying to offend any person who disagrees, just wanted to get my voice out there too. There are obviously a lot of other collectors like myself who feel the same way, people like us, keep them in business, we the collectors share the same interests as BLI. Its a win win situation. They make what they like, which also happens to be what we like. I am very grateful that BLI listens to people like us, I think the name of the company speaks for itself. The very term "broadway limited" at the very least, translates to retro streamliners that roamed the rails of the PRR of the 40's and 50s, among other glorious behemoths, be they passenger or freight. Point being that Broadway Limited imports is obviously the company for collectors who love the PRR, among other railroads such as the N&W, C&O. And give them time, its entirely possible they will release smaller engines in the same amazing detail. I would love a BLI 2-8-0 (although the Bachmman spectrum has already made the consolidation and other small engines). Who knows, maybe when they make enough large archaic turbines or duplex engines, even the collectors themselves will push BLI into making small detailed pieces such as switchers, or shays, although again, bachmann spectrum makes excellent shays in HO and On30. Precision Craft Models already released the galloping goose some time ago, correct?

Well, off my soap box, kinda long post, sorry. BLI pennsy's mean a lot to me though.

 Yesterday, I took the time to re-read some of my MR cpoies from the 1970´s. I took special interest in the ads I saw. Here is my resume:

Most of the R-T-R stuff offered from the likes of AHM, Atlas, Athearn, LifeLike, Mantua et al. was fairly crude and toy-like, but cheap. Rivarossi in Italy seemed to be the only maker of "better" locos. There was a lot of brass around, with seemingly more importers than there are today. "Plastic" locos were in the range of $ 20 - 30 , brass usually exceeding the $ 100 . Doesn´t that translate into $ 200 - 300 and $ 1,000 + of today?

Most of the steam locos available were USRA derivatives in many, not always correct, guises. Ah, well, and there was Bowser...

In my opinion, today´s  market is much better catered for. Athearn, Atlas, Walthers Proto (ex LifeLike) are light years ahead of the quality they used to make, and BLI, MTH turn out well-engineered locos, even if we may not agree to the choice of prototype. The USRA range is pretty much covered and there is still the option to  do a little "bashing" to adapt the loco to the road of our choice.

We will have to live with the fact that MTH and BLI will release those spectacular locos for collectors. Should not be a problem, if other makers start to fill the gap for those bread and butter workhorses we´d like to see!

Sir Madog:

In my opinion, today´s  market is much better catered for. Athearn, Atlas, Walthers Proto (ex LifeLike) are light years ahead of the quality they used to make, and BLI, MTH turn out well-engineered locos, even if we may not agree to the choice of prototype. The USRA range is pretty much covered and there is still the option to  do a little "bashing" to adapt the loco to the road of our choice.

We will have to live with the fact that MTH and BLI will release those spectacular locos for collectors. Should not be a problem, if other makers start to fill the gap for those bread and butter workhorses we´d like to see!

 

Exactly, excellent post.

John (CNJ),
The problem is that I'm pretty sure you have said that those who buy just RTR models are not "real model railroaders", but mere dabblers in the hobby.  Someone who simply buys stuff and runs it on their layout is really a collector, not a modeler.  Right?

So why would a "real model railroader" care about any RTR model?  If they don't like what BLI is offering, "real model railroaders" will simply make their own because they are craftsmen who enjoy making their own steam engines from scratch.

I would agree that BLI's production of large locos over smaller locos is "choking out the real Operators of the hobby" in that it's tough to do realistic Operations with only super large steam locos.  But "real Operators" are, as you have said in the past, not necessarily "real model railroaders" because they may or may not have scenery and may or may not have ever built a kit in their entire lives.

FYI, Horizon still has 5 new 2-8-0's and 1 new 2-6-0 in their Roundhouse line for $139.98.  They also have a bunch of Spectrum small steamers in stock (2-8-0's w/ sound for $318, 2-10-0's w/ sound for $335, 4-6-0's w/ sound for $345, and 4-4-0's w/ sound for $425), plus they still have plenty of BLI Light Mikes in Blue Line for sale.  Spectrum has a new run of 0-6-0T's coming in the Fall for $125 ea., Walthers still has some Spectrum MA&PA 4-6-0's for $210 and plenty of modern 4-4-0's at $290 (on sale for $199.98 or $425 w/ sound).  They also have a WM 2-8-0 for $190 and plenty of 4-6-0's for $345 (w/ sound). 

I wouldn't say all these are currently "in production", but then what is?  Since just about everyone has gone to batch production, not much is going to be "in production" at any one time.  However, these loco models are still available brand new in the box from the two biggest distributers (or soon will be).  I call that "good enough", don't you? 

As for the brass industry, you always seem to forget a critical change in the hobby, and that would be the rise of the very company we're talking about, BLI.  For example, brass used to be the only medium to get NH I-5's outside of doing it yourself, and now BLI is getting better versions to market at a even cheaper price than the old brass models (BLI I-5's sold new at $359, and I paid $400 for my NJ/CB I-5 in 1996...unpainted).  Not only are they more accurate models with even better detail, they run and pull a heckuva lot better than any brass model out of the box (I just ran my BLI I-5 with 10 passenger cars up a 3% grade on a 40" radius curve last night), and they have DCC and sound to boot.

In a limited way, one can say brass priced itself out of the market...but that's only because the plastic manufacturers like BLI, P2K, and Spectrum started taking the legs out from under the brass importers by building a better product at much lower prices.  Or, IOW, the market for good steam models dropped from the $1000-level of brass to the $500-level (or less) of BLI, and brass just hasn't been able to compete on price.

Oh, and BTW, you didn't use the term "actual model railroaders" in your earlier post, you said "real model railroaders".  There is a difference, as you have pointed out many times.

In regards to the NHRHTA, we are in rare agreement about modelers in historical societies.  I was positively shocked to learn that I am considered a radical rivet counter who dared complain about $1500 brass R-3a models that had incorrect tender lettering.  I was appalled to realize that I was more strict in my reviews about new NH products than the NHRHTA was.  I mean, historical societies are supposed to be hardcore river counters, and yet I got a lot of flack from NHRHTA members for saying something wasn't done right.  But heaven help me if I should call the mainline to Boston in Massachusetts the "Shore Line" when they are adamant that the Shore Line only refers to the ancient Shore Line Division that was East of New Haven and West of Rhode Island.  Sigh.

Have a happy 4th, John.  BTW, are you going to be at the NMRA National show?  Our club's on a layout tour on the 8th, and most of us are planning to go to the show on Friday the 10th.

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

Hmmm

"But "real Operators" are, as you have said in the past, not necessarily "real model railroaders" because they may or may not have scenery and may or may not have ever built a kit in their entire lives."

BLI and MTH make large steam because people buy them. I like large steam and I like mikados and the rest. I dont model Pensy, I live in Omaha and know nothing of Pensy. I dont like the labels people use around here. Either you are a model railroader or your not. Either you are involved in the hobby or not. I understand the models may not be prototypical but this is a hobby not a museum artifact society.

If only the so called real model railroaders were involved in this hobby then most of the companies making this stuff would be gone by now.

twhite:

 I do have a passing track on a curve on my eastbound main.  The inside radius is 34" the outside radius is 36".  Even with those fairly generous radii, I do not DARE run one of my articulateds on the inside track to bypass a train on the outside.  It all has to be done the opposite, with a NON-ARTCIULATED loco on the inside track, and even then I do it very slowly with my fingers crossed, LOL! 

It is so easy to fall into the trap of the arbitrary 2-inch-between-tracks distance (for HO).  While usually sufficient for straight track, the sharper the curves and longer the equipment (and particularly articulated locomotives), the greater the distance required.  Unfortunately, virtually all published plans use the arbitrary 2-inch distance.  Even generously broad curves in the 30 to 40 inch radius would be helped with an additional quarter inch or so spacing.  Before laying out your track, check the NMRA recommended practices.  This will often mean reducing the inside track's radius somewhat as the outside track is usually at the maximum that will fit.

In consolation, Tom, even prototype railroads found the inadequacies of their physical plants limited operations of some of their equipment.  Just hope your dispatcher and operators are intimately familiar with your railroad's peculiarities/limitations.

Mark

GTX765:

Did not realize the people playing with trains had an Elitist or snobby way about them. The more i read this forum the more i realize what the real problem is..........

I read remarks like this over and over on this forum and its getting old.

For your health, and perhaps to the chagrin of those holding opinions you disagree with, it is best to ignore them or at least act like you're not annoyed.

Mark