General Discussion (Model Railroader)

 

Ok, some independent thoughts here since BLI engines are way out of my price league.  The PRRT&HS has a model commitee to work with manufacturers and make PRR engines, details and paint as realistic as the manufacturer is willing to do.  I have known about the Q2 since last years convention which was in May of 2008.  This engine has been a long time coming and was one of the really wanted engines by PRR modelers.  That being said all PRR modelers are clammoring for a 2-8-0.  the H8,9 and 10 classes were well over 1000 and nobody (even Bowser) has made an H8 or H9.  The problem with an ubiquitous class of engines like that is improvements over the years.  Almost every one differed in some way.  Some getting power reverses and some getting different tenders, etc. So to do that engine there is going to be a tremendous amount of grumbling about what would be made.  The Q2 was a "pure" class of engines with little or no variation and therefore one engine model will suffice.  The vast majority of the BLI PRR engines are being bought by PRR modelers and not collectors.  Just read the Keystone Modeler ( free on the PRRT&HS website) if you don't believe me. Nearly every picture of motive power includes at least one BLI engine.  PRR modelers snapped up almost every I-1 2-10-0 before they even hit the shelves,  I know several who bought four or five they were so common on the PRR (598 built by the PRR).  We want an L1s 2-8-2 and an E44 among other engines.  Every year we participate in  a survey to show the manufacturers what we want.  Some listen some don;t.  The P70 passenger cars are a direct result of this commitee being questioned as to what was wanted from what I understand.  So don't necessarily judge BLI for making this engine.  Every indication was the market was there and would buy it. Now will come all the people who will want to know why it won;t take 18" radius curves or smaller.  I totaly agree that 36" minimum curves and larger should be the norm for these engines.  The PRRT&HS model commitee ( I am not a part of it) is doing a fabulous job of getting better and more accurate models of PRR equipment made and distributed most of which  are based on PRRT&HS members wishs and wants.  

John (CNJ),
How is it that BLI's offering of large and unusual RTR steam engine models is "...yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby"?

I thought "real model railroaders"(tm) rolled their own steam engines out of flat brass sheets, etched their own parts with acid, and cast their own parts from lead or pot metal?  After all, "real model railroaders"(tm) like you are craftsmen, as you have been so to gracious to point out to us on many, many occasions. 

Why would any craftsman like yourself be so bothered by a Ready-To-Run model that a real craftsman would never buy in the first place?  Obviously, such a model as this PRR loco only appeals to the those dabblers in the hobby, not "real model railroaders"(tm), so why complain?

Paul A. Cutler III
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Weather Or No Go New Haven
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Paul3:

John (CNJ),
How is it that BLI's offering of large and unusual RTR steam engine models is "...yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby"?

I thought "real model railroaders"(tm) rolled their own steam engines out of flat brass sheets, etched their own parts with acid, and cast their own parts from lead or pot metal?  After all, "real model railroaders"(tm) like you are craftsmen, as you have been so to gracious to point out to us on many, many occasions. 

Why would any craftsman like yourself be so bothered by a Ready-To-Run model that a real craftsman would never buy in the first place?  Obviously, such a model as this PRR loco only appeals to the those dabblers in the hobby, not "real model railroaders"(tm), so why complain?

Paul A. Cutler III
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Weather Or No Go New Haven
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IDK---because he can?

To get a rise out of you mayhaps?

Did a pretty good job, I'd say---

markpierce:

selector:

This is not going to be very welcome news for many of you, but BLI has the Q2 listed for delivery late this year!  That was the 4-4-6-4 Duplex which was the most powerful non-articulated steamer every produced. 

I bet BLI will turn it into an articulated, even doubly articulated.  Anyone dare to challenge that opinion?

Mark

Mark: 

BLI might also do the same thing that they did with their T-1 4-4-4-4, blank out the second and third sets of driving wheels.  Which will probably make it pull like crazy on straight track, and lose pulling power like crazy on curves, as the blank drivers will just be 'floating' over the track. 

Good Lord, I have trouble enough explaining the prototypical overhang of my Yellowstones on a 36" radius, what's the overhang of that locomotive going to look like on a 22"?   The mind boggles!

Tom

ndbprr:

 

Ok, some independent thoughts here since BLI engines are way out of my price league.  The PRRT&HS has a model commitee to work with manufacturers and make PRR engines, details and paint as realistic as the manufacturer is willing to do.  I have known about the Q2 since last years convention which was in May of 2008.  This engine has been a long time coming and was one of the really wanted engines by PRR modelers.  That being said all PRR modelers are clammoring for a 2-8-0.  the H8,9 and 10 classes were well over 1000 and nobody (even Bowser) has made an H8 or H9.    So don't necessarily judge BLI for making this engine.  Every indication was the market was there and would buy it. Now will come all the people who will want to know why it won;t take 18" radius curves or smaller.  I totaly agree that 36" minimum curves and larger should be the norm for these engines.  The PRRT&HS model commitee ( I am not a part of it) is doing a fabulous job of getting better and more accurate models of PRR equipment made and distributed most of which  are based on PRRT&HS members wishs and wants.  

The fallacy in your conclusion, I'm afraid, is basing it on the assumption that every PRRT&HS member that wants a Q2 is actually an active modeler with a layout capable of handling such a locomotive, not just simply a PRR enthusiast/collector. It's particularly difficult to accept that there are 3,000-5,000 PRR modelers out there with really large layouts just waiting for such a monster of the rails to be offered so they can regularly operate it. This is especially true when one considers how few large layouts are evident in any survey.

Far more reasonable is the likelihood that a great percentage of the PRRT&HS members interested in obtaining the Q2 are in fact just PRR enthusiasts/collectors and not modelers at all. Certainly this is true of the NHRHTA, which I'm more familiar with, a group which also works diligently with the manufacturers. Nevertheless, the actual number of HO model railroaders of the NH in the group with significant-sized layouts constitutes only a small fraction of the membership.

CNJ831

 

Well you are entitled to your opinion but from my experience it is wrong.

twhite:

Good Lord, I have trouble enough explaining the prototypical overhang of my Yellowstones on a 36" radius, what's the overhang of that locomotive going to look like on a 22"?   The mind boggles!

Tom

I did a quick jigging of some pieces of paper in HO scale----At 22" I came up with a nightmarish looking 4" or so----I thought the other one was bad----

Mind, if anyone else's figures are different then---

Barry,
Well, since John doesn't seem interested in answering the question, why don't you give it a go?  How is it that BLI's offering of large and unusual RTR steam engine models is "...yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby"?  I can't figure it.  It's sort of like someone complaining about how the newest BMW, Ferrari, or Hummer is stopping others from buying (or building) a Ford.

John (CNJ),
About the NHRHTA...  While a couple BOD members are "serious" model railroaders, there is a strong contingent of not just folks who aren't modelers, but I'd even call them anti-model railroaders in the NHRHTA.  There have been many opinions posted over the years on various NH Forums that we modelers should stop playing with little trains and donate our hobby money to one of the several Conn. museums that are preserving ex-NH equipment.  I have to remind them from time to time that the NHRHTA was founded in 1961 as a model train enthusiast group, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

Paul A. Cutler III
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Weather Or No Go New Haven
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markpierce:

I bet BLI will turn it into an articulated, even doubly articulated.  Anyone dare to challenge that opinion?

Mark

Sure, I'll double dare. The third set of drivers is flangeless (see BLI pictures). There is VERY little clearance between the second cylinders and the second and third driver sets. IF the photo on the BLI website reflects the final product, I predict, because of these facts, the engine will not be "articulated". I think they're going to go with "lateral motion devices"; at least I hope so.

What is also of interest to me is if BLI can make this loco work on 22" curves and still have it look/work right on an appropriate radius (say 48"--the prototype 4-12-2 could handle that). There's going to have to be a lot of lateral movement on the tight curves, and that MAY affect how the engine looks. If they pull it off, everyone should be happy.

Ed

Paul3:

Barry,
Well, since John doesn't seem interested in answering the question, why don't you give it a go?  How is it that BLI's offering of large and unusual RTR steam engine models is "...yet another factor slowly choking out the real model railroaders of the hobby"?  I can't figure it.  It's sort of like someone complaining about how the newest BMW, Ferrari, or Hummer is stopping others from buying (or building) a Ford.

Why is this difficult to understand? Using a variation of your anology, what happens to the Ford buyers, who spend say $20,000 for their cars, when Ford starts producing only BMW, Ferrari and Hummer class vehicles at $50,000+ a pop? That's just what's going on with BLI (MTH was always rather outrageously priced). They started out with nice, reasonably priced, smaller steamers but now all of BLI's efforts are going into large, even overly-large, very high priced, steam. They are clearly the premier producer of steam in the marketplace. The current  selection (i.e. in production now, not 2nd hand off eBay) of steam from other manufacturers is relatively minor. Where else can you turn?

The Q2 is listed at $599.99 and is indicative of where the price of virtually all BLI/MTH steam is headed. It's precisely the same senario brass followed over the past twenty years, with each new issue exceeding the last similar example by 10%-15% in price. Brass priced itself virtually out of business. The end result of the BLI/MTH race will be the pricing out of the majority of today's actual model railroaders with an interested in steam. If you don't think that is considered as a choking off of the hobby, I really don't know what to say, other than I'm constantly amazed by the shortsightedness of so many folks here.

John (CNJ),
About the NHRHTA...  While a couple BOD members are "serious" model railroaders, there is a strong contingent of not just folks who aren't modelers, but I'd even call them anti-model railroaders in the NHRHTA.  There have been many opinions posted over the years on various NH Forums that we modelers should stop playing with little trains and donate our hobby money to one of the several Conn. museums that are preserving ex-NH equipment.  I have to remind them from time to time that the NHRHTA was founded in 1961 as a model train enthusiast group, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

I will certainly agree with you on that statement. I've seen how the modeling element is generally regarded on the NHRHTA forum. One of the reasons I no longer bother with it. However, it does tend to reflect my earlier point that while individuals belonging to these railroad historical societies might have an interest in collecting, only a very small percentage are actually modelers.

CNJ831   

Looks like I was "close" with my guess of a $599 MSRP.   Sheesh!   I hope this thing will also make coffee in the morning.

-Crandell

Going back a few posts....I'd say "Collectors" don't necessarily just put things on the shelves. I think the distiction between "Modeller" and "Collector" is that the first is interested in re-creating a particular railroad, or area, in realistic detail, and buys model engines to further that goal; the latter is more interested in the model themselves, and (although they often build layouts to run their equipment on) aren't that interested in reproducing a particular railroad or place as much as just enjoying the models they have.

Neither one is wrong, but it does seem a lot of models coming out now are of engines that in real life were pretty rare, apparently catering more towards the collector than the modeller. I mean, are there really that many Pennsy modellers who are going to buy this engine because it fits the time and place of their layout?? I'm sure there are many engines that would be more popular with more people. Even among the SPF's I'm sure a moderately priced / smooth running 2-8-2 or something as common would be much more popular.

selector:

Looks like I was "close" with my guess of a $599 MSRP.   Sheesh!   I hope this thing will also make coffee in the morning.

-Crandell

Or, at least whip up a nice, scolding hot latte for you...

 

It is rigid frame not articulated.  The comment made to me was the drivers have a lot of side play.  It also has a brass boiler shell.  As I said earlier everything BLI makes is out of my price range.

ndbprr:

 

It is rigid frame not articulated.  The comment made to me was the drivers have a lot of side play.  It also has a brass boiler shell.  As I said earlier everything BLI makes is out of my price range.

If it is not articulated the side play would have to be even weirder looking than I've imagined----at 22"? I even tried the template measurement on that ---how much side play would have to be there for that to work?

A non-articulated Q2. HMMMN. Sounds a little 'Static Display' to me------