DC Metro Collision

It was on the national news.  NBC had video of it at about 6:15 PM.

I just rode that line a few weeks ago.

Just saw the latest video on local news.  It looks as if one car pushed into another, with the upper shell of the one wrapped around a reasonably intact car below.  Not visible, what happened to the interiors of both cars.

If those cars were anywhere near filled to capacity, there will probably be many more dead recovered (the official count is now four.)  The newscaster said that they had a mass casualty event, with no estimate of what the total might be.

It's way too early to try to figure out what happened - or didn't happen when it was supposed to.  All we can do is mourn the dead and pray that the injured will make full, rapid recoveries.  Later we can try to make sense of whatever materiel or human failure was involved, and what has to be done to drastically reduce the possibility of a repeat.

Chuck

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090623/ap_on_re_us/us_dc_metro_train_derailment

I hope there's wasn't any texting!

Local Television out of DC just announced that the death toll from the Metro accident is now 6.

Information is indicating that it was a rear end collision, as opposed to head on as was previously being reported.

ValleyX

Does anything know anything about the operation of the Metro DC system. I read on another forum that these trains are computer controlled with an operator override. Is there any truth to that?

It's automatic control.  In normal operation the motorman only opens and closes the doors, and makes station announcements.

RWM

Railway Man

ValleyX

Does anything know anything about the operation of the Metro DC system. I read on another forum that these trains are computer controlled with an operator override. Is there any truth to that?

 

It's automatic control.  In normal operation the motorman only opens and closes the doors, and makes station announcements.

RWM

Just saw about this on local news so I checked in.  What a disaster, lets hope the casualties don't go any further. 

One southbound train collided with another just under the New Hampshire Avenue Bridge near the Ft. Totten station on the Red Line 

Update as of 10 PM: There are 70 injuries; 50 people who have minor injuries, 14 people who have moderate injuries, and 6 people who have serious injuries. So far there are 6 people who are known dead, but the Fire Department's Emeregency Rescue Service is still searching both trains for others.

NTSB is on the scene, but they can't begin their investigation until the Fire Department finishes its search and rescue opereation. One of the things they will be looking for is an event recorder which gives information such as time of day, speed, and whether the trains were under automatic or manual control. The General manger of Metro was interviewed, and he said it was standard procedure to have the trains on automatic [computer controlled] operation during rush hours. The Metro trains that crashed carried 6 cars, one train was one of the earliest series - 1000 series - while the other train was of the 5000 series;   

In a choice between operator (i.e. human) error and technology breaking down...I will go with the latter.

Sounds like the crash on the MBTA Green Line in Newton, MA in May 2008... One train stops at a signal, another rear ends it. The operator was texting. Train speeds on the ex-B&A line are at least 40.

That wreck was close to the same train speeds (the MBTA train was doing 37 or 38 MPH) and it was an older (either from the 1986 / 1988 or 1997 orders) light rail vehicle involved, not a heavy rail subway. The car had a black box, unlike the Metro car, and all but the motorman survived.

I can see why people are mad at the Metro... If a Type 7 LRV can survive better than a heavy rail subway at comparable speeds, and has a black box recorder, which the Metro car does not, there's something wrong there!

As reported in other Forum replies, the "State of the Art" DC Metro was conceived to run without an operator, complete computer control.   Safe, interesting features, Subway Stations without columns for crime prevention, a hidden compartment next to the Motorman so Transit Police can watch down the car un-observed.    An Operator or Motorman was added just to guard the doors. When the motoman stepped off, 20 years ago, the train left without him, a "Start Button" was added in the cab.  I have ridden them, read about the advances, I do not know the extent of "Cab Signals", "Stop", or "Overide" buttons and switches that are in the cab nor the amount of training required on a computerized system. 

Something went very wrong that wasn't backed up.

CShaveRR

Forgive me, but I've never ridden or followed the DC Metro system, so I'm not sure about their equipment (long and low, is all I remember from seeing some a few years ago). But we are dealing with some mighty old cars here. News reports say that the train that rear-ended the other one had old cars that should have been phased out years ago. The fact that the shell split away from the frame in the way it did attests to the lack of crashworthiness of that particular design.

 

I suspect (at the risk of becoming too political here) that the short-changing of mass transit by past administrations and Congresses is to blame for old equipment being kept around longer than it should have been, given modern safety requirements. Even if the Metro were to become appropriately "stimulated" today, it would take years before these cars could be phased out.

Along the same lines (sort of):

The cause of this crash will be determined by a full investigation that might take weeks.  It is likely to be several days before one or more probable causes emerge and are reported.  We will be told over and over not to jump to any conclusions until the investigation is complete.  Yet today officials are reporting that the equipment comprising the train that struck the other was old and overdue for replacement.  And they add that the failure to replace it was a safety concern.  Specifically, they have linked the insufficient crashworthiness of the obsolete equipment to the damage suffered in this crash.  I have not heard reports of any other linkage of the inadequate safety of the obsolete equipment to the crash, but perhaps there have been some. 

I have to ask why any official would volunteer this incredibly sensitive and incriminating information before the official investigation has even begun.  I can only conclude that it is evidence of an on-going agenda to lobby the public for more funding by highlighting the premise that inadequate funding increases danger to the public.  What better tool could there be?  It basically tries to blame the crash on the taxpayers. 

But, at the same time, this tactic seems incredibly ham-handed for failing to see the unintended consequence.  That is, when you blame unsafe equipment on a lack of funding, you acknowledge that you are placing the public in danger by knowingly running unsafe equipment. 

Bucyrus

I have to ask why any official would volunteer this incredibly sensitive and incriminating information before the official investigation has even begun.  I can only conclude that it is evidence of an on-going agenda to lobby the public for more funding by highlighting the premise that inadequate funding increases danger to the public.  What better tool could there be?  It basically tries to blame the crash on the taxpayers. 

 

But, at the same time, this tactic seems incredibly ham-handed for failing to see the unintended consequence.  That is, when you blame unsafe equipment on a lack of funding, you acknowledge that you are placing the public in danger by knowingly running unsafe equipment. 

I thought it was the National Transportation Safety Board (NSTB) that was making the statements, not the DC Metro itself.

Lets back up, IF the trains had not CRASHED, the construction of the cars would be a non-starter. 

The damage is a result, not a cause.

When you start to ask questions, how do you get two outbound trains at the same place, on a double track, third rail powered, computer controlled line at the same time?

Bucyrus,

The NTSB is a political organization.  They have a long list of wants/needs/got to haves for each mode.  When something happens that seems to relate to something on their list they trot it out as you have seen in this case.  I suspect the reason is that the media will carry the item in the immediate aftermath. 

The final reports get very little media play but do contain recommendations to the operator and the appropriate regulatory agencies.  They usually respond in writing to the NTSB.  If the operator or regulatory agency agrees and says "we will do that, or we have done that" NTSB is happy and closes the item as acceptible, if I remember the term correctly.  If the operator or regulatory agency disagrees NTSB closes it as unacceptable and waits for the appropriate accident to trot it out again.

It is all a political game.  To their credit NTSB is very good at aircraft accidents and reconstructions but they give no thought to the cost or benefits of their recommendations.  I think they are specificially prohibited from doing so, but am not sure of the law on that point.

Mac

TrainManTy

Sounds like the crash on the MBTA Green Line in Newton, MA in May 2008... One train stops at a signal, another rear ends it. The operator was texting. Train speeds on the ex-B&A line are at least 40.

That wreck was close to the same train speeds (the MBTA train was doing 37 or 38 MPH) and it was an older (either from the 1986 / 1988 or 1997 orders) light rail vehicle involved, not a heavy rail subway. The car had a black box, unlike the Metro car, and all but the motorman survived.

I can see why people are mad at the Metro... If a Type 7 LRV can survive better than a heavy rail subway at comparable speeds, and has a black box recorder, which the Metro car does not, there's something wrong there!

 IINM, the LRVs are much newer than the DC equipment so that may explain the lack of event recorders..

Bucyrus

...But, at the same time, this tactic seems incredibly ham-handed for failing to see the unintended consequence.  That is, when you blame unsafe equipment on a lack of funding, you acknowledge that you are placing the public in danger by knowingly running unsafe equipment. 

Agreed, and this raises distinct and troubling questions on ethics.

We should all hope, and expect patiently, that the facts are clear, simple and incontrovertible when they are revealed.

-Crandell 

Bucyrus

I have to ask why any official would volunteer this incredibly sensitive and incriminating information before the official investigation has even begun.

All too often initial "blame" gets placed on some peripheral issue (like the age of the cars) when the actual cause of the incident was something totally unrelated.  Granted, if the cars had been more crashworthy, the number of killed and injured might have been lower, but the fact remains that if [whatever the cause turns out to be] hadn't happened, the age of the cars would have been a moot point.

The NTSB does a fine job, I know a member of the rail group, its not the same people as in an airline crash. BUT, they can only recommend, it's up to the Congress or State Governments to pass or change a law to include the recommendations.  This has been done in the "Chatsworth Crash" but Congress has given the Railroads to 2015 to make the changes. We all know Calf. has lots of money!

AP News posted on Yahoo: for what it's worth.

The train that was hit (new type) had a "Black Box", the train that did the hitting (old type) did not.

The Driver of the hitting train, a 44 year old woman who was killed in the crash, was hired two years ago as a Bus Driver and later promoted to Trains.

During "Rush Hour Service" trains are run by the computers, off peak they sometimes are run manually.

carnej1

The Green Line and the DC Metro use very different signal and train control systems . IINM, the DC trains are much more automated with the Human operators as emergency backup so I do not think that we can assume the same circumstances (although I'm not suggesting human error can be ruled out).

 IINM, the LRVs are much newer than the DC equipment so that may explain the lack of event recorders..

I had no idea the Metro trains were automated... I can see how different they are now!

When were the Metro cars built?

TrainManTy

When were the Metro cars built?

The first batch were built in 1976 by Rohr Industries in Winder GA.  I believe they were designed by Breda of Italy.

oltmannd

TrainManTy

When were the Metro cars built?

The first batch were built in 1976 by Rohr Industries in Winder GA.  I believe they were designed by Breda of Italy.

Very interesting- I railfan around Winder quite often and did not realize that the current Trinity facility (fomer Thrall, former Rohr) made thiose cars. Thanks for the info. Jamie

Some additional information; The east leg of Metro's Red Line runs along the CSX Brunswick Line from the Rhode Island Avenue station to the Silver Spring Station; after leaving Silver Spring the Red Line enters a tunnel mostly under Georgia Avenue (MD 97) through Wheaton to Glenmont at the intersection of Georgia Avenue and Randolph Road (MD 97 and MD 182). 

MARC's Brunswick Line trains were cancelled today (June 23), however, Amtrak's eastbound Capitol Limited did run, and I expect the Westbound Capitol Limited will run today.

The accident raises many questions which the NTSB will have to sort out. According to today's Washington Post the train that was hit had stopped behind another train that was standing in the Ft. Totten station. Metro's tracks run in between the CSX Metro Subdivision tracks, and north of the Ft. Totten station the tracks curve around under the New Hampshire Avenue bridge so one question is, was the operator's sight-line blocked so she couldn't see the other train until it was too late?

Unfortunately Metro Rail's safety record isn't too good. There were two incidents in the last 5 years where track workers were killed because the train opeerators did not reduce the train sppeds as they passed the work zones. The brakes failed on a Red Line train at the Shady Grove station causing the train to derail, and killing the operator. There was another incident 5 yeas ago where the brakes failed on an empty Red Line train which rolled downhill, and collided with a standing Red Line train which was stopped at the Woodley Park-Zoo station. In another indcident on the Orange Line two years ago where the operators of two trains, having clear signalsand under automatic control, noticed their trains were still too close to one another so they applied the brakes. And finally 2 years ago a Yellow Line train derailed at the Mt Vernon Square station, and it collided with the tunnel wall injuring 20 people.