General Discussion

tree68:

I grew up believing that Michigan was considered part of the midwest.  Out of deference to Madam La Mook, I'll refer to it as the eastern midwest.

As it stands, US23 will probably be close to the limit - venturing a little further west to hit Owosso (chief reason for the trip) and Deshler (for a day or three of camping at a certain diamond), plus some friends in the old stomping grounds.  There's a reunion for the class following ours in August, but that's to far from the big event in Owosso, so I'll be skipping it.  That's unfortunate, 'cause I knew a lot of those kids pretty well.

And I do remember from my Michigan History and Government that Michigan was part of the "Northwest Territory."  In fact, I'm pretty sure that all of the states that made up said territory had their townships laid out exactly the same way - 6 miles square, and referred to based on a baseline and a meridian.  My old hometown was township 2 north, range 7 east, IIRC.  That shows up in deeds all the time.

Back some two hundred or years ago, anyplace west of the Alleghenies and north of the Ohio was called the Northwest, and, in time, came to be known as the Midwest. Ricki's father was from Dayton, and his wife (Germantown, Pa., and Brookline, Mass.) spoke of him as being a "midwesterner."

Other states that were settled after the USA came into being used the township system to locate property, always referring to the baseline and the meridian. Back in the sixties, I did a bit of research in Mississippi, and discovered IIRC that the sections were numbered west to east (1-6) for the northern-most six, then east to west (7-12) for the row, and then alternated the direction for each succeeding row.  Of course, watercourses and topography brought some irregularity into the system. Or, was it townships that were numbered in this alternating fashion?

And, if you have an exactly square acre (43560 square feet), it is 208.710325571113 (to 12 places) feet on each side. It's no wonder that a land description would read "so many acres, more or less." I had to work this out slowly as I could not find a square root function on my spreadsheet. Of course, we get into the matter of sig figs here. Two decimal places is probably sufficient.

I believe that Lousiana had its own system (parishes and no counties, as well as a different legal system that was based on the Napolonic Code, etc.)

Larry, do you know the baseline and meridian?

Johnny

Almost anyone in this Indiana area will refer to it as the "Midwest"...

Deggesty:

Larry, do you know the baseline and meridian?

As suggested in Carl's post, I'm pretty sure each state has their own. 

In Michigan, the baseline is Eight Mile Road in the Detroit area. All of the counties west across the state have that line as a county line.  Find the border between Wayne and Macomb Counties (or Wayne and Oakland) and follow it west. 

The meridian is just east of Lansing and runs straight through the middle of Ingham County.  The county lines between Hillsdale and Lenawee Counties, Clinton and Shiawassee Counties, and Gratiot and Saginaw Counties are all on the meridian.

Each township was also divided into sections - a square mile (640 acres).  Many property descriptions will have verbiage to the effect that the property is located in the "E 1/2 SE 1/4 of Section 1, Township 2 north, Range 7 east".

While looking for examples, I found descriptions along that line as far west as Iowa.

That's today's civics lesson....  

You're right, Johnny, those are sections that are numbered in that back-and-forth method. It's the same here as in Michigan.

What's really fascinating to me is that not all miles are created equal--they have to compensate for the narrowing of the meridians as one gets closer to the poles. In Michigan, I remember, there are three or four places where mileage is adjusted--the further you get from the Prime Meridian (Larry, you'd be east of it; I'll stay west of it), the more marked the changes became. So those straight north-and-south roads would take quite a jog when they'd come to these points.

Of course, when I refer to mowing the North Forty (which I have to do today!), it's a throwback to when property consisted of multiples of forty acres (a quarter-mile square). We don't really have forty acres back there (or even one), but it's still kind of fun.

Just saw that Norris ("Murphy Siding") has been made a moderator. Of course, that means that he'll be turned away at the Lounge door from now on.

Just kidding, of course! Congratulations, Murph! You certainly were there when needed this weekend!

Thought I would join you nice folks over here in the lounge

CShaveRR:

when I refer to mowing the North Forty

 

From the time we moved to Calgary my Train Dispatching father said he had to "run the plow" every time he had to shovel the snow off of our sidewalks. And it was always funny in the spring when both of my parents, who come from rural backgrounds and live in a house with a fifty two foot lot, would talk about getting out on the land.

And it is nice to hear we are getting a new moderator, this past weekend certainly had its' annoying moments.

AgentKid

 

tree68:

Deggesty:

Larry, do you know the baseline and meridian?

As suggested in Carl's post, I'm pretty sure each state has their own. 

In Michigan, the baseline is Eight Mile Road in the Detroit area. All of the counties west across the state have that line as a county line.  Find the border between Wayne and Macomb Counties (or Wayne and Oakland) and follow it west. 

The meridian is just east of Lansing and runs straight through the middle of Ingham County.  The county lines between Hillsdale and Lenawee Counties, Clinton and Shiawassee Counties, and Gratiot and Saginaw Counties are all on the meridian.

Each township was also divided into sections - a square mile (640 acres).  Many property descriptions will have verbiage to the effect that the property is located in the "E 1/2 SE 1/4 of Section 1, Township 2 north, Range 7 east".

While looking for examples, I found descriptions along that line as far west as Iowa.

That's today's civics lesson....  

Yes - each state's Meridian (in the North-South direction) and Baseline (East - West direction) is generally separate and independent from those of other states - although Michigan's is shared with Ohio's. See:

http://www.earthpoint.us/Townships.aspx 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Land_Survey_System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Meridian 

Usual disclaimers apply on the Wikipedia articles.

There are several on-line references and even "calculators" to graphically show where a certain description of land is in this system.  For example: 

http://leehouse.tripod.com/twpCalc2.htm 

For more info on this, search for "township & range" and "Michigan", or similar.

But those of us in non-PLSS states - such as here in Pennsylvania - think that's awful boring, compared to our legal descriptions that include such things as "an old oak tree", "the post in John's garden", "a stone in the road", "the fish under the rock in the stream at the bottom of the hill", and so on.  Where's the fun in that ?

Oh ye of literal minds . . .

- Paul North.

 

Paul_D_North_Jr:

the property is located in the "E 1/2 SE 1/4 of Section 1, Township 2 north, Range 7 east".

 

Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba also use this system. The baseline is near the Ontario/Manitoba border. We end the description with west of so and so meridian. Calgary is in an odd situation because Barlow Trail between Memorial Drive and McKnight Boulevard is right on the Fifth Meridian. So Calgary lot descriptions can either be "West of the Fourth", or "West of the Fifth".

But what I really wanted to say is that is how my Father's Birth Certificate read. His original Birth Certificate was lost in a fire and when he needed a new one to renew his Driver's License once, he got one with a land description because in the intervening years the town he had been born in became unincorporated and everything taken away. This created difficulty when he had to get a passport because they want a name, not a land tittle description. So the Government put the original town name back on it and he ended up in a situation where his Passport and Birth Certificate didn't match. He passed way in 1992, years before world travel got complicated.

AgentKid

 

Paul - Wish I could get hold of the deed from where I last lived in MI - according to the Google Earth display, the property straddled two sections (never mind not having a true N-S or E-W border).   I did get lucky, though, and was only one section off.  Even though I didn't recall what section(s) we were in, I still remember the range (2N, 7E).

Where I live in NY (and most of NY for that matter) the townships appear almost haphazard.  Every now and then you'll see some semblance of order, but not often.

I'll respond to several friends in one post:

Larry: Each township was also divided into sections - a square mile (640 acres). Many property descriptions will have verbiage to the effect that the property is located in the "E 1/2 SE 1/4 of Section 1, Township 2 north, Range 7 east".

This system can be a bit difficult to interpret when you first read it, especially if the plot is really small. But, it is accurate, more so than the one Paul mentions. Of course, when you have irregular boundaries, you can have difficulty in describing it correctly. And, really small lots (even as great as five acres) need more exacting descriptions.

Carl: What's really fascinating to me is that not all miles are created equal--they have to compensate for the narrowing of the meridians as one gets closer to the poles. In Michigan, I remember, there are three or four places where mileage is adjusted--the further you get from the Prime Meridian (Larry, you'd be east of it; I'll stay west of it), the more marked the changes became. So those straight north-and-south roads would take quite a jog when they'd come to these points.

Carl, don't you mean as you get farther from the baseline?

I always understood the Prime Meridian to be the one that runs through Greenwich, England (0^o 0' 0"); does Larry live in England or on the Continent?

I had never thought of the jogs in section-line roads as being caused by changes in latitude, but, as you say, this is necessary if you use the same baseline as you go north any great distance.

Paul: But those of us in non-PLSS states - such as here in Pennsylvania - think that's awful boring, compared to our legal descriptions that include such things as "an old oak tree", "the post in John's garden", "a stone in the road", "the fish under the rock in the stream at the bottom of the hill", and so on. Where's the fun in that ?

Oh ye of literal minds . . .

Ah, yes, as though the oak tree would be there forever, or John would never have to move his post, etc.

And, AgentKid: But what I really wanted to say is that is how my Father's Birth Certificate read. His original Birth Certificate was lost in a fire and when he needed a new one to renew his Driver's License once, he got one with a land description because in the intervening years the town he had been born in became unincorporated and everything taken away. This created difficulty when he had to get a passport because they want a name, not a land tittle description. So the Government put the original town name back on it and he ended up in a situation where his Passport and Birth Certificate didn't match. He passed way in 1992, years before world travel got complicated.

Wow! International travel was much simpler, even seventeen years ago. Of course, up through our trip this year, we needed only birth certificates and/or driver's licenses to go into and out of Canada (always by train). We do have passports now.

Johnny

tree68:

Where I live in NY (and most of NY for that matter) the townships appear almost haphazard.  Every now and then you'll see some semblance of order, but not often

 

Yes, see what you end up with when you let people come in any old way and settle, and how much more orderly it is if you lay the land out before you let people settle on it.

Johnny

GUY'S, I STRONGLY URGE YOU ALL TO LOOK, AND POST TO MY RECENT THREAD CALLED "THANK THE MODS." GRANDPAW PETTIBONE WANTS US ALL TO HIT THE REPORT ABUSE BUTTON FOR THE GUY BY THE NAME OF PHUNK YOU, GOOD MORNING LOOSERS, AND MANY OTHER NAMES. PLEASE VISIT THE POST THANKS TO THE MODS.

THANKS

YOU KNOW WHO.

Deggesty:

I always understood the Prime Meridian to be the one that runs through Greenwich, England (0^o 0' 0"); does Larry live in England or on the Continent?

Ah, but that's the Prime Meridian.   Not to be confused with the sub-prime meridian, or Meridian, Mississippi (which I'm sure the local residents feel is prime...).  

 

Shhh, Justin--indoor voice!

Seriously, all caps, boldface, and large, readable lettering is a bit of overkill, and I'm all sure we agree with your sentiments about this person.

Perhaps, now that you've gotten our attention, you can edit your post to reduce the type size. Thanks!

CShaveRR:

Just saw that Norris ("Murphy Siding") has been made a moderator. Of course, that means that he'll be turned away at the Lounge door from now on.

 

Just kidding, of course! Congratulations, Murph! You certainly were there when needed this weekend!

  Oh- if only the trolls were as nice as the folks here!