Here's my situation:
I have one main loop, which fans out into 5 bypass sidings at one end.
I would like to have the option of having the power to the sidings rotate sequetially.
The idea being: Train leaves siding 1, does the loop, returns and is de-powered once in the siding; power transfers to siding 2, same thing, except entry switches need to change to return train to siding 2, and not crash into train in siding 1; and so on.
What kind of relays (signals to go with would be nice, but are optional), and other gear. if any, would I need?
Of course still need the option to operate these sidings manually as I do now using toggle switches.
Where I should source the stuff would also be helpful.
Thanks,
runtime
I've done this with 3 tracks and you can do it with as many as you want. A fellow by the name of Stan Roy demonstrates in an old TM video (the action, not the wiring). Drawing out a schematic would take some time. I'll try to put it in a nut shell without mapping it out. There are small details I will miss here but this is the concept. It assumes you are using non derailing switches with fixed voltage such Lionel O22:
Via the switch machine terminals, you would tie the switches at the beginning of the sidings to the switches at the end of the sidings so that when a train leaves the sidings, the non derail control rails in the switches leaving the sidings trigger the switches approaching the sidings so they route the train back to where it started. The old Lionel corp operating instructions show how to tie switches in this manner. The switches should be arranged so only two routes any train in and out of the mainline. Otherwise, you would integrate them with relays so you don't get a cross signal.
You would have control rails and stop sections at the end of each siding that close a relay and release the train on the adjacent siding via a stop section. The hot side of the relay coils would get current from the switch machine terminals (the same current that energizes the controller lamps) so the adjacent train doesn't let the incoming train proceed. This is called "getting the block".
The relays could be DPDT with 12VDC coils with a rectifier added to control trains and signals.
To switch over to manual control, you could use DPDT toggle switches so one side sees the relay energized current and the other sees manual block toggle switch current. One DPDT switch would control one pair of stop sections. Or you could bank three DPDT relays and do the same thing by energizing the relay bank with one toggle switch.
I've got a three volume set of Peter Riddle electrical books stashed somewhere and I'm pretty sure it was vol 2 that showed how to set up control of this sort. Not your situation but how to use relays and link switch machines.
Take a look at this site:
www.Three-Rail.com/3RATX.htm
jkerklo Take a look at this site: www.Three-Rail.com/3RATX.htm
What kind of turnouts do you have? How are they arranged? In particular, are the two ends of the yard symmetrical?
Bob Nelson
Jkerklo and lionelsoni, thanks for responding.
The 3-Rail Controllers seem worthwhile, although which is right for me, and how many I will need is as yet unclear to me; I'll have to contact them, it could get expensive, but probably that's true for the alternatives as well.
My main line splits into 4 bypass sidings. The top three are completely symmetrical, with three 022 switches at each end. The fourth is the first encountered from the mainline when entering from the left end (clockwise travel), but merges into the third siding before exiting on the right end. Switches are again 022, one with modified radius.
I'm at the wrong computer right now, but I'll try to post a photo.
The lack of symmetry means that a simple pairing of the turnouts is not going to work to get each train back into its own track. However, even the most pathological of arrangements can be handled with no more than 4 short control rails at the departure end of each track, to throw as many arrival turnouts as needed to set up the proper route. How complicated this will be will depend on the exact arrangement of turnouts.
Here is a proposal for a relay design: At the arrival end of each track, put a control rail to operate an "arrival" relay associated with that track. One normally-open contact of that relay latches the relay. A second normally-open contact connects a control rail at the departure end of the same track to a single "departure" relay that is used for all tracks. The departure relay provides track voltage through a normally-open contact to a third normally-open contact on the arrival relay, to power the stop block at the departure end of the next track. Somewhere on the main line, away from the yard, there is another control rail operating a release relay with a normally-closed contact that removes the supply voltage from all the arrival relays, resetting the one that was latched.
---------- ---------- ----| Relay |--------------| Track |--- | | Supply | | | Supply | | | ---------- | ---------- | | V | | ------- Release Layout | |--| K02 |--o Control Common | | ------- Rail | | X K01 | ------- | |--| K01 |------------------ | | ------- | | Stop- | Arrival | Departure | Block - K02 Control | Control | Center | Rails | Rails | Rails | ------- | K11 | K11 |--| K11 |--------o 1 |--X--o 1 |--X--o 2 | ------- | | | | X K11 | | | | | | | V | | | ------- | K12 | K12 |--| K12 |--------o 2 |--X--o 2 |--X--o 3 | ------- | | | | X K12 | | | | | | | V | | | ------- | K13 | K13 |--| K13 |--------o 3 |--X--o 3 |--X--o 4 | ------- | | | | X K13 | | | | | | | V | | | ------- | K14 | K14 |--| K14 |--------o 4 |--X--o 4 |--X--o 5 | ------- | | | | X K14 | | | | | | | V | | | ------- | K15 | K15 ---| K15 |--------o 5 ---X--o 5 ---X--o 1 ------- | X K15 | V
X is a normally-open contact; - is a normally-closed contact.
This scheme requires 5 arrival relays, each with at least 3 normally-open contacts, 1 departure relay with at least 1 normally-open contact, and 1 release relay with at least 1 normally-closed contact. The relays can have AC or DC coils; but I think it will be easier and cheaper to use DC relays with a DC power supply.
If it is difficult to get relays with 3 contacts, you could use two with their coils wired together for each track. However, in that case it would be simpler to use a separate departure relay for each track. Then the arrival relay does not need a contact for the track voltage.
I think it would be simplest to locate all the relays near the departure end, with just 5 wires running to the control rails at the arrival end.
The web page for the ATX says:
"The ATX has three isolated outside-rail inputs and two double-pole relays."
If you look up the data sheet for those relays :
http://www.zettler-electronics.com/de/produkte/zr-relais/pdf/miniatur/AZ942.pdf
It says they are single pole.
Garfield, thanks for pointing out our mistake. The relays are DOUBLE-THROW. The website has been corrected.
Bob, thanks for the detailed design suggestions.
Unfortunately, even though I have an engineering degree, I can't follow your discussion nor your diagram well enough to implement your suggestions. That's not to imply that your info is inadequate, more likely my brain is calcifying. Particularly, I don't understand the K1....etc nomenclature.
I was also wondering where would be a good place to purchased these relays, and if I go DC what would be my power source? I have a ZW I picked up at auction, which needs a power cord, so I've never used it. My switches are powered by some little Lionel transformer, and my trains are powered by an ac transformer of unknown identity with various power taps ranging from 4 to 24 volts (I use 20v),run through a big reostat. I don't understand it any better than that, since it was may dad's last setup, and he always cobled things together from salvaged parts from who knows where.
Finally, what do you think of those devices at 3-Rail, overkill?
Thanks as always.
And here's some photos of the bypass sidings.
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/foxeyone/trains/IMG_0660.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/foxeyone/trains/IMG_0674.jpg
The "K"s are just the relays. Each relay has a box on the diagram which is its coil. Its contacts are the "X"s and the "-"s embedded in the wiring and marked with the name of the relay. Most of them are normally open (X). Only one is normally closed (-). The "V"s are layout common. "o"s are connections to rails.
For a DC power supply, you could get an HO-style 12-volt DC supply if you use 12-volt relays. Or you could use a transformer feeding a bridge rectifier. The average voltage will be about 90 percent of the transformer's RMS voltage, less about a volt for the rectifier. The transformer must not have any connections to your track supply. One side of the DC out of the rectifier will however be connected to the layout common--the outside rails.
Radio Shack sells a number of 12-volt DC relays, none however with 3 poles. Mouser has a 3PDT (3 form C) relay with a 24-volt-DC coil and 7-ampere contacts for $9.57 (http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=769-HC3-H-DC24V-F), and a 4PDT (4 form C) with a 12-volt-DC coil and 5-ampere contacts for $10.21 (http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=769-HC4-H-DC12V).
I don't have any experience with the 3-Rail devices.
I'll study your pictures and see what I can suggest for controlling the turnouts.
I just looked at the pictures. Is there another turnout to the left, out of the second picture?
Assuming that the missing turnout is where I guessed, I think I have a scheme for wiring the turnouts together. I assume that you want the trains to run in the direction shown in the pictures. There are two possibilities. A completely general scheme that allows the trains to run in any order requires two short control rails other than those on the turnouts. Unfortunately, one of them is located between two turnouts, where there is no room for a control rail. Nevertheless, here it is:
I will call the tracks 1 through 5, from left to right, and the turnouts A1 through A5 on the arrival end. D1 is the turnout on the departure end that joins the two leftmost tracks. D2 through D5 are the other turnouts on the departure-end ladder track, left to right. I will add an S to the turnout name for the straight-path coil and a D for the diverging-path coil. Wire the turnouts for the three right-hand tracks in simple pairs, A5S-D5S, A5D-D5D, A4S-D4S, A4D-D4D, A3S-D3S, A3D-D3D. Then A2S-D2S, A2D-D2S, A1D-D1D. Finally, connect A1S to two short control rails, one on track 2, near D1S, the other between D2 and D3.
If you leave out these control rails, then connect A1S instead to A2D-D2S. Then the train order must be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, with 3, 4, and 5 in any order.
lionelsoni I just looked at the pictures. Is there another turnout to the left, out of the second picture?
Yes, I forgot to post it. Here's the second and third photos together for reference (I hope):
Try this as an option:
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/4PRLY-12/RELAY-4PDT-12VDC-KH-STYLE/-/1.html
MY4 DC12. 12 Vdc, 160 ohm coil. 4PDT contacts rated 5 Amps @ 240 Vac/ 28 Vdc. Solder or socket mount terminals. UL, CSA.
Great deal at $4.00 each. You can't beat All Electronics.
I edited my last post to add information about the turnouts; but it took me so long that your posts got in before my edits.
I have edited that last part again, to correct a couple of errors.
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