General Discussion (Classic Trains)
Like Classic Trains magazine itself, this forum celebrates the "golden years of railroading." Covering the railroad scene from the late 1920s to the late 1970s, this forum section is everything from giant steam locomotives and colorful streamliners, to the dieselization-era. Share your recollections here! If you're new here, please read our forum policies.
Last post 11-21-2009 3:52 PM by henry6. 647 replies.
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daveklepper
Joined on
06-18-2002
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
The BMT had one Pullman-built subway-elevated aluminum train, built as an experiment about 1935. The "Little Flower" saw it in for coupler replacement at Coney Island shops and ordered it donated to the scrap drive. It proved when operating that elevated trains could be much quieter. Possibly used PCC resilient wheels. Its nickname was "The Gren Hornet>"
The BMT also had one Clark Equipment Company experimental aluminum PCC car, the only North American PCC not built by St. Lous, Pullman, or Candian Car and Foundry. It was built shortly after the first 1935 standard PCC's arrived from St. Louis as a replacement for one Brooklyn car that was diverted to Pittsburgh as a demonstrator and stayed there. The St/ Lous cars were 1001 - 1099, and 1001 is restored and operating at the Branford, CT. musuem. The aluminum car was numbered 1000. In 1957, when Brooklyn streetcar service ceased, 1001 was already at Branford, and 1000 eventually went to Kingston, NY as part of the museum there. I heard a rumor that because of detioriated condition, it was scrapped. Too bad,.it pioneered standee windows.
Third Avenue Railway. later Third Avenue Transit, had home-built aluminum 551-600. double-end Peter Witts, used almost exclusively on Broadway-42nd Street, with their steel 601-625 Corten cousins. They all went to Brazil in 1948, and a few have been preserved there, one operating at a museum.
The Cincinnati and Lake Erie "Red Devils", later on LVT's "Liberty Bell" and Crandic were aluminum. A few have been preserved, one at Branford.
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passengerfan
Joined on
03-23-2004
Central Valley California
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
Okay Here is my list of RRs that owned Aluminum Cars.
NYNH&H Comet
CN Tempo & Turbo.
B&O 1st lightweight Royal Blue transferred to Alton
GM&N Rebels
L&N Hummingbirds
NC&STL-L&N Georgians
MP Various postwar cars
T&P Various postwar cars
IGN Various postwar cars
KCS various postwar cars
UP various prewar and postwar cars
C&NW various prewar and postwar cars in City service
WAB coaches built for and assigned to City of St. Louis
Alton 2nd Abraham Lincoln
Whose question?
I am trying to work in some much needed Vacation time and finally get a chance to try my new camera I purchased over a year ago for RR pictures and so far it has only shot family and a quick trip to San Diego. I am hoping to get away some time in the next three weeks.
Al - in - Stockton
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Deggesty
Joined on
08-22-2005
Near the Crossroads of the West
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
passengerfan:Whose question?
Al, it looks as though Wanswheel (10:07 am on 10-21) gave more roads than anybody else.
Incidentally, I remember a comment to the effect that, since they were much lighter than steel cars, the aluminum cars did not "ride like Pullmans."
Johnny
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passengerfan
Joined on
03-23-2004
Central Valley California
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
Deggesty:
passengerfan:Whose question?
Al, it looks as though Wanswheel (10:07 am on 10-21) gave more roads than anybody else.
Incidentally, I remember a comment to the effect that, since they were much lighter than steel cars, the aluminum cars did not "ride like Pullmans."
Johnny
Johnny the early Aluminum cars rode rough from what I have read, but having ridden a number of the postwar aluminum trains and cars I came away very favorably impressed susch as the AC&F UP postwar cars, CN Turbos, but not the Tempo cars. It was the truck dsign under the latter that gave them such a poor ride at speed. I think I have commented beore that anything over fifty was like a bucking bronc. They were perfect as the ski trains and should fit nicely on the Algoma Central where there speeds will remain low. In SW Ontario sevices they were built for higher speeds but the new truck design was not capable of handling the cars sway and pitch. Witnessed a Club car attendent spill a entire tray of drinks while trying to serve them. I have talked to few people who rode the cars when they were in SW Ontario service who had anything good to say about there ride, Th Turbos were kind of rough riding when operating slow through the switches at terminals but once above 35 mph they seemed to smooth out and it made for a very comfortable ride in the faster speed ranges.
Al - in - Stockton.
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wanswheel
Joined on
11-12-2005
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
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Texas Zepher
Joined on
10-12-2004
Colorful Colorado
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
Well, I don't know if the manufacturers had multiple shops or not... Rodgers was NJ. Baldwin was Philly. Lima was in Ohio. Even the predecessors of Alco are a bit too modern to be the first. Those would be Brooks or Schenectady Locomotive Works. The "Monster" was built in N.J. So it is probably a locomotive built by one of the many tiny machine shops such as one of the H.R. Dunham built locomotives for the Camden & Amboy sometime between 1834 and 1836.
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henry6
Joined on
12-21-2001
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
The builder in New York City was West Point Foundery...I just can't remember the engine...perhaps Best Freind of Charleston?
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wanswheel
Joined on
11-12-2005
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
Henry, yes your turn. The Best Friend of Charleston was the first locomotive in the world to pull a passenger train in 1830. The boiler and other parts were cast at West Point Foundry in Cold Spring, just south of Breakneck Point (tunnel picture) and across the Hudson from Storm King and the U.S. Military Academy. The foundry existed to make cannons at a secure location away from the coast, in peacetime it could diversify. The erecting shop was on Beach St. at West St. in Manhattan. Southern Railway's 1928 replica is not an exact copy of the original, which exploded in 1831.
http://www.samlindsey.com/images/FamilyHist/BestFriend_81.gif
http://books.google.com/books?id=FtsRIRjninUC&pg=PA24#v=onepage&q=&f=true
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henry6
Joined on
12-21-2001
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
Speaking of early locomotive works...I believe there were six which joined to make the American Locomotive Works...name them and their cities.
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daveklepper
Joined on
06-18-2002
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
Not really revenue, but the first USA steam loco was the Tom Thumb, and it was built by Peter Cooper at his foundry in Manhattan for the B&O.
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wanswheel
Joined on
11-12-2005
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
Tom Thumb's brass engine was built at Sterling Works in New York to Peter Cooper's specifications and he used it in his factory "for pumping water and other purposes." The locomotive, as distinct from the engine, he built at Mount Clare.
Peter Cooper in the Boston Herald, July 9, 1882:
"It is now about fifty-five years since I was drawn into a speculation in Baltimore. Two men there, whom I knew slightly, came up and asked me to join them in buying a tract of three thousand acres of land within the city limits. It included the shore for three miles, and the new Baltimore and Ohio Railroad was going to run through it. The road was chartered, and a little of it was graded. Its cars were to be drawn by horses; nobody thought of the possibility of steam. I consulted my friend Gideon Lee, ... and he advised me that it was a good scheme. He said the land was worth five hundred thousand dollars, whether the road was ever finished or not. So I went to Baltimore, saw the land, and agreed to take one-third, and paid my money, twenty thousand dollars.
"They drew on me every little while for taxes, etc., and when, at the end of a year, I went down again, I found out that neither of my partners had paid a cent on the purchase, and that I had been sending down money to pay their board! The Baltimore and Ohio Railroad had got some wooden rails laid, and thinking it might amount to something, I bought my swindling partners out, paying one of them ten thousand dollars. I thought it would pay, for the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad had run its tracks down to Ellicott's Mills, thirteen miles, and had laid 'quakehead' rails, as they called them, strap rails, you know, and had put on horses. Then they began to talk about the English experiments with locomotives. But there was a short turn of one hundred and fifty feet radius around Point of Rocks, and the news came from England that Stephenson said that no locomotive could draw a train on any curve shorter than a nine hundred foot radius. The horse-car didn't pay and the road stopped. The directors had a bad fit of the blues. I had naturally a knack at contriving, and I told the directors that I believed I could knock together a locomotive that would get the train around Point of Rocks. I found that my speculation was a loss unless I could make the road a 'go.' "So I came back to New York and got a little bit of an engine, about one horse-power (it had a three and a half inch cylinder, and fourteen inch stroke), and carried it back to Baltimore. I got some boiler iron and made a boiler, about as big as an ordinary washboiler, and then how to connect the boiler with the engine I didn't know... .
"I had not only learned coach-making and wood carving, but I had an iron-foundry and had some manual skill in working in it. But I couldn't find any iron pipes. The fact is that there were none for sale in this country. So I took two muskets and broke off the wood part, and used the barrels for tubing to the boiler, laying one on one side and the other on the other. I went into a coach-maker's shop and made this locomotive, which I called the 'Tom Thumb,' because it was so insignificant. I didn't intend it for actual service, but only to show the directors what could be done. I meant to show two things: first, that short turns could be made; and, secondly, that I could get rotary motion without the use of a crank. I effected both of these things very nicely. I changed the movement from a reciprocating to a rotary motion. I got steam up one Saturday night; the president of the road and two or three gentlemen were standing by, and we got on the truck and went out two or three miles. All were very much delighted, for it opened new possibilities for the road. I put the locomotive up for the night in a shed. All were invited to a ride Monday - a ride to Ellicott's Mills. Monday morning, what was my grief and chagrin to find that some scamp had been there, and chopped off all the copper from the engine and carried it away - doubtless to sell to some junk dealer. The copper pipes that conveyed the steam to the piston were gone. It took me a week or more to repair it. Then (on Monday it was) we started - six on the engine and thirty-six on the car. It was a great occasion, but it didn't seem so important then as it does now. We went up an average grade of eighteen feet to the mile, and made the passage (thirteen miles) to Ellicott's Mills in an hour and twelve minutes. We came back in fifty-seven minutes. Ross Winans, the president of the road, and the editor of the Baltimore Gazette, made an estimate of the passengers carried and the coal and water used, and reported that we did better than any English road did for four years after that. The result of that experiment was that the bonds of the road were sold at once, and the road was a success."
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daveklepper
Joined on
06-18-2002
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
Was the locomotive used in revenue service until they got something more substantial or did they revert to horses?
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henry6
Joined on
12-21-2001
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
The locomotive was thrown on a siding or in a shed and neglected for years while horses continued operations.
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Texas Zepher
Joined on
10-12-2004
Colorful Colorado
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
henry6:Speaking of early locomotive works...I believe there were six which joined to make the American Locomotive Works...name them and their cities.
Well I already named two: Brooks Locomotive Works in Dunkirk, NY and Schenectady Locomotive Works in duh Schenectady, NY. Dickson Manufacturing in Scranton, PA Rhode Island Locomotive Works in Providence, RI (as I recall was bankrupt at time of the merger) Cooke Locomotive in Paterson New Jersey Richmond Locomotive works in duh Richmond, VA Manchester Locomotive in duh Manchseter, NH and ummm another city name one....
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henry6
Joined on
12-21-2001
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Re: Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).
Well Tex, you got all I was thinking of...but Taunton in RI may have been another...it gets murkey because so many had already combined...like Rogers into Cooke in Paterson...
Ya got it! Ya go next!
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