newbie - question on layout construction

The layout plans shouldn't be dependent on what type of benchwork you use. However if I follow your question, you will need some type of bracing...if you're using say a sheet of plywood, you'll need some 1'x3's or something under it to keep it rigid. You can make the legs removable, or use legs that fold up and down (like an old card table used to use) so the layout wouldn't be that large vertically. In N scale each real inch is about 13 scale feet, so you only need a couple of inches of height for one train to go over another or to create hills and valleys.

BTW some N scale layouts have been designed to fit on a hollow core door, which is lightweight and readily available at the local home center.

Keep in mind that 101 Trackplans shows all the plans in HO scale, which is larger than N. An HO layout on a 4' by 8' sheet of plywood would fit on about a 2'x4' sheet (or a touch larger) in N. However, a good choice might be to find a good 4x8 HO layout and build it in N, but use the same dimension curves as the HO layout. An 18" radius curve (used on many small layouts) is a very sharp curve in HO and limits the cars and engines you can use - long passenger cars, big steam engines etc. can't do those tight curves very well. However in N anything over 15" radius is "broad" and will handle even the largest equipment, so those same 18" curves will let you run big steam or full length Amtrak Superliners.

I think you have found your "online resource for tips or instructionf for building".  You posted your question on that resource.  Search the messages here and you will likely find answers to all your questions.  Some users have posted pics of their contruction layout.  A picture is worth a 1000 words, right.

The January edition of Model Railroader has an article on building the "Beer Line".  This layout is composed of 2X4 sections that have dowel pins on the edges for aligning the models together.  I think they showed it in about 4 or 5 different configurations.  I think that article might help you with the question about being easky to remove from the room without completely taking the layout apart.

Don't limit youself to just a rectangular table layout.  That same sheet of plywood can be arranged in many shapes by cutting it up.  I have not seen the book you are referring to, but look for "dog bone" and "shelf" type layouts.  The shelf or dogbone layout up against the wall will save a lot of floor space and help make all areas "reachable" by smaller people.  Plus, you might be able to incorporate book shelves or something similar under the layout around the wall to help with storage for the other items that are commonly found in a bedroom.

 Thanks for the replies guys. I'll do some searches to see what other folks have done.

 Are there any online articles or resources regarding the use of foam instead of grid construction? None of the books I've seen (all of which seem to be at least 25 years old) cover the use of foam.

This is a simple, lightweight frame I built for my own free-standing HO layout.  It's 5x12 feet.  Not only is it free-standing, but it also has wheels (casters) on the bottom so that it can be rolled around the room as needed.

Here's another view, showing the interior a bit better.  The outer frame is 1x4 lumber, and the interior cross pieces ("rafters") are 1x3.  I mounted them even with the bottom of the 1x4'x, so that the base of the layout sits inside the outer frame, about an inch down for protection.

The legs are 2x3.  I secured them using triangular gussets of 3/4 inch plywood.  This provides a solid mount which doesn't twist out of place.  I only needed one set of diagonal braces underneath, to give support for the center legs to keep them from bending inward.  I also used a single piece of 1x2 diagonally across the framework to prevent that from twisting.

I used 2-inch foam for my layout base.  This is what it looked like a few days after I brought the frame in and started building my empire:

The frame and foam base provide a very lightweight structure.  I can still easily roll this 5x12 layout around on a carpeted floor.  Foam construction is also very scenery-friendly, as you can cut gullies and ditches easily, and use scrap foam to build up contours as well.  To move the layout out of the room, of course, you should make some provision for removing and replacing the legs.

feh

 Thanks for the replies guys. I'll do some searches to see what other folks have done.

 Are there any online articles or resources regarding the use of foam instead of grid construction? None of the books I've seen (all of which seem to be at least 25 years old) cover the use of foam.

Foam will still need some form of support (framework) below it or it will droop over time. Foam is used as a scenery base in place of the screen and plaster method you probably saw in the older books.

The National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) has a good on-line resource for beginners, as well as the information on standards for all sorts of things related to model railroading

http://www.nmra.org/beginner/

 

I have a 4 by 8 layout Nscale ,,, I have a prebuild table with portable legs,,,, I then used a 2"Foam base to lay my track plan. I also used foam for the mountain pass,,,, I was able to drill holes in the foam with out drill thru the table ,,, The wiring is between the foam and the table and is out of the way... I believe this would be the best way to start,,, You could be running trains with you son in a day,,,,, Once you have a idea of what you like,,,, You then could build some bench work with some different plans (L Shape,,, C Shape ,,,,  Good luck  

August 2008 Model Railroader has three "custom" track plans that can be cut from one sheet of 4'x8' plywood instead of using the sheet of plywood in its original 4'x8' shape.

Layout Example:  The N Scale "Housatonic Valley Railway" trackplan uses three cuts to the 4'x8' plywood sheet and ends up with a U-Shape.  The dogbone layout's minimum radius is 9.5" and is pretty much "as minmum radius" as you would want to get in N Scale.

Just a thought -- Housatonic Valley Railway could easily be expanded to a 2-track mainline by adding 6" to the layout width from a second sheet of plywood.  The additional mainline track would need to be at 1-1/2" greater than the suggested minimum radius of 9.5", but would add so much more in train operations.  And, the maximum width at the two dogbone ends, making the layout width there 2-1/2', would still have a 3' walk-in, with a remaining 5' width inside "the pit" of the U-Shape.  Minimum room size for this layout is 8'x8'.

http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=i&id=271

Just-published "102 Realistic Track Plans" M.R. Special Issue, is more than an update to "101 Track Plans" -- including conversion charts from other scales to N Scale, and; also going into a lot modern layout planning rationale.

Planning example:  There is a "caveat" about layout scale conversions, such as aisle-width considerations, because human hips are the same size regardless of scale.  $7.95 is not bad to give you a total of 203 track plans with some N Scale advice.

http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=2823 (do "See Inside").

P.S.:  A lot of good advice for you preceding my input, and your efforts are "on the right track."

welcome to the forum, and to model trains. I too have a 9 year old and we've playing with trains since he was about 3 or 4. Oddly, it was him who got me into the hobby, not the other way around. We're in the midst of building our "next" layout. Our first one was something we jointly designed when he was 5, based on a hollow-core door. Hollow core doors are a good place to start- just make sure you have some sidings for expansion. Things to consider: - Pick a size or project you can get trains up and running quick. Let the scenery and details develop around getting something up and running - a hollow core door is a nice size for a starter- you can get it done easily but on other hand, its size also limits how much you can pack in, so it may get a little dull? YMMV on this - if you really are set on doing a 4x8, check out the n-scale "advanced" or "intermediate" (forget which it's called) atlas books- we found several layouts there that looked like fun - We almost built a 4x8 for our new layout- but in the end, we discovered we couldn't get a 4x8 down the stairs and around the corner. a 4x8 sheet may fit, but when you add the additional depth for foam, some bracing framework, and a hill or mountain, sometimes things don't fit anymore - I was really sold on the 4x8, but eventually talked my way out of it- it's tough to reach the center of a 4x8 unless you can walk all the way around it, then you end up needing something more like 8x12' - for our current project we went with benchwork from Sievers. Wasy to assemble, and we are making our layout modular so we can move it (eventually) or expand it. I agree with you that as a newbie to the hobby, it's tough to find articles about small layouts, and many of the books are pretty old. If you're interested, I can send you a note or post here with a few that we've found that have been useful (can't remember their titles off hand) The only thing I've learned so far for this hobby is everything costs twice what you planned and takes 3 times as long to do it. But maybe that's just me. Good luck!

About your question on grid versus foam layout....

I think the benchwork would be basically the same. 

There is a book out on building benchwork that is from the producers of Model Railroader magazine.  Here is a link to the Kalmback store's listing for it.  I have not read it, but I would bet it would cover all your questions.

It seems the standard benchwork plan is using 1x4 material to make the "box" that will support either the foam or the plywood table top.  Cross braces approximately each 16".  Then, legs to support that "box" at the height you want.  The picture posted earlier shows what I am talking about.  My layout is along a wall, so the rear legs were elimintated and the benchwork was screwed directly to the wall studs.  My front legs are also 1x4's bolted to the top "box".  I used a sheet of 3/4" plywood ripped to about 3.5" widths instead of looking for straight regular lumber.

I did not put anything under the foam, although I have read since starting my layout that it is advisable to put something between the foam and the benchwork.  Even if it is only a 1/4" piece of plywood.  That piece would be glued with latex caulk to the foam.  It is thought that the piece of plywood under the foam will help reduce any noise.  That topic seems to be debated, though.  Some say there is no problem with noise, others seem to think the foam can be like a drumhead and amplified the noise of the trains.  Others say the noise goes away when sufficient weight is added to the foam as the scenery and ballast all comes together.  I would glue a 1/4" piece of luan (or some other cheap ply) to the bottom just in case.  For your 4x8 layout, you are only talking about $10 or so.

I am using 2" foam for my base.  If using some plywood under it, I would think the 1" stuff would be sufficient.  I guess it depends on how deep you plan on digging ditches or other terrain features.

Watch out for solvent based products with foam.  The foam will "melt".  It's actually kind of cool to watch (as long as it is a scrap piece and not your actual layout).  Latex caulk and latex paints are the way to go.  I would paint the foam as soon as you lay it too, to provide a barrier to any solvents that might find their way to the foam.  Plus, a nice brown or green layer of paint just makes the layout so much better looking that a bunch of track on PINK foam.

To hold the track in place temporarily while glueing it, or just playing around with layout ideas, you will need some long pins.  The ones I got were labled "quilting pins".  I have found them in the craft section at Wal-Mart.  They are about 1.5" long.  Regular push pins used on a bulleting board kept popping loose on me.  Foam will not accept regular track nails, they just are not long enough to hold.

Woodland Scenics makes some foam risers that are available in various grades.  They definitely make creating a slope pretty easy.  Personally, I think for any future grades I will create, I am just going to use a piece of 1/8" masonite to create the slope and then use foam scraps to suport the masonite.  Kind of combining the "cookie cutter method" into the foam method.  Running out to get the foam risers is not convenient for me, and cutting the foam at a 1.5% or 2% grade is messy and I have not been able to master it smoothly.  I think the 1/8" material would help maintain the slope and help form the transition into and out of the slope.

feh

We are going to build this in his bedroom, which is quite large. I'm thinking the dimensions will be 4'x8', although we could go a bit larger if it would make sense. I've bought the book "101 Track Plans", which apparently is widely used and known.

Since you're new at this, you will be quite surprised to find that the plans in that particular book will be very difficult for you to re-create in the real world.

It is an old book and comes from an era when model railroaders were comfortable cutting and fitting track to match the drawings and/or handlaying it.

These plans are just about impossible to build out of current-day sectional track pieces, or with currnet turnouts.

There are lots of better alternatives for track plans that you can actualy build. Search the internet or try the new book, "102 Track Plans."

 

 Your layout can start off from 4*8 sheet goods, plywood, urethane builders foam, or homasote.  5/8 or 3/4 inch plywood is plenty strong enough to make a train table without any bracing or grid work.  Plywood is noisy and the glue layers inside the plywood are so hard that it becomes difficult-to-impossible to drive in track nails.  Better is homasote, a soft gray insulating board that takes nails well and runs quietly.  Homasote is not all that strong, and will sag over time unless it is laid on top of plywood or given some wood stiffeners underneath.  With homosote you can have the fun of trying different track layoits. When tired of the current layout, just pull out the track nails and relay the track to make a new one. 

  Or, you can go with foam.  It's light and strong.  It will not take nails at all, you have to glue down the track with latex caulk.  Once glued in place, it can be difficult to change the layout.  The  big benefit of foam is the ability to carve it into scenery with just a steak knife.  Mountains and tunnels can be made from extra pieces of foam.  The boy will enjoy carving the stuff to shape.  

  Then there is the matter of legs.  Although a nine year old is perfectly happy running trains on the floor, you will want the layout raised up to table top height.  Something about getting older and not so flexible. The simpliest leg deal is to merely lay the trainboard on top of some other furniture, a table, some sawhorses, a couple of those short two drawer file cabinets.  a couple of low chests of drawers, whatever.  If you make your own legs, you need about 6 of them for a 4*8.  The legs need some diagonal bracing unless your cabinet making skills are much greater than mine.  2*3 is plenty strong enough for legs.  The legs may want levelers.  You just drill the bottom of the leg to take a Tee nut and thread a 1/4-20 carriage bolt into the Tee nut. 

  You may want to do a 1*4 fascia strip arount the outside of the layout.  It looks good, stiffens the train board and gives you something to attach the legs too.  The whole project will look better with a couple of coats of gloss enamel, which will make Mom feel better about the whole deal.

 Thanks again everybody for the information!

 I'm just about ready to head to the store to buy supplies...where can I buy the 2" foam folks have been referring to? 

 Is there any way to use foam and nails (instead of calk) for securing the track?  I definitely need to use foam for topography, but would prefer nails over calk, if we decide we want to change something half-way through construction.

 And although I don't think I need it - where can homasote be purchased?

 

feh

 Thanks again everybody for the information!

 Is there any way to use foam and nails (instead of calk) for securing the track?

Short answer.  No.  If you go with a foam base, you have to use adhesives, the foam doesn't grip any sort of fastener.  Everything (track, undertable switch machines, wire guides,etc) must be secured with glue. 

You might consider a base of homasote upon which you lay your track, and building up mountains and such with sheets of foam,cut to shape, laid on top of the homosote.  

Both Homasote and building foam can be bought from or ordered thru real lumber yards.  This kind the contractors buy from.  They will match the big box stores on price and they have employees who know a good deal about the materials they sell.  They carry a better grade of lumber.  For Homasote dealers, there is a website that can be googled for that lists all the authorized dealers.  For foam, make sure you get the extruded blue or pink builders foam.  Avoid the white beadboard foam, it is too crumbly for layout work. 

dstarr

Short answer.  No.  If you go with a foam base, you have to use adhesives, the foam doesn't grip any sort of fastener.  Everything (track, undertable switch machines, wire guides,etc) must be secured with glue. 

You might consider a base of homasote upon which you lay your track, and building up mountains and such with sheets of foam,cut to shape, laid on top of the homosote. 

 

 Using homasote would restrict the track to all one level, correct? In other words, if I want to have sections of the track at different levels, I need to use foam, right?

 Thanks.

feh

dstarr

Short answer.  No.  If you go with a foam base, you have to use adhesives, the foam doesn't grip any sort of fastener.  Everything (track, undertable switch machines, wire guides,etc) must be secured with glue. 

You might consider a base of homasote upon which you lay your track, and building up mountains and such with sheets of foam,cut to shape, laid on top of the homosote. 

 

 Using homasote would restrict the track to all one level, correct? In other words, if I want to have sections of the track at different levels, I need to use foam, right?

 Thanks.

Homasote is a roadbed. It is like cork strips. Foam is a scenery base. If you place a 2" sheet of foam on your subroadbed, you would then lay homasote on top of that to lift the track higher than the surrounding scenery.

By the way, track affixed with caulk and be pulled up and moved fairly easily.

The book 101 in HO and other similar books were written in a time long ago when everyone did thier own planning on paper.

Foam is a scenery item that became accepted and adapted to Model Railroading somewhat a few years ago about when the pink stuff first arrived onto the market in the USA. Prior to foam they used metal screening with plaster and news papers to cover it and probably cardboard as well. Very heavy stuff.

If you are going to build a railroad in a room that will be used for another purpose such as bedtime sleeping, you are going to have to make room for the people, the bed etc. Also think about everything in that specific room. All the windows, closets, the door swing room, people access to and from all these things.

I had a small layout on casters that went under the bed I sleep on as a teenager. That room was pretty extreme in smallness. But we made it happen. However, no tunnels, no mountains, hardly any scenery or buildings at all because under the bedframe was about 2 inches over the rails. It was actually easier to set up a O27 railroad in the bigger living room most of the time for the day.

Today's track is going to be much different than what was written in the old books long ago. However the thoughts about electricity in Analog and DCC still stands. I run my layout full DCC but with a simple swap of bus wires I can run the thing in full DC.

You are going to be learning all kinds of skills as you go along with the new layout. If your motivation is strong and you make a mess here and there as you get better and better, things are going to work out well.

A track, roadbed, a train takes up a certain amount of room no matter what scale they are in. People will take up the rest of the free space.

feh

Using homasote would restrict the track to all one level, correct? In other words, if I want to have sections of the track at different levels, I need to use foam, right?

You can limit your table-top materials to only homasote, plywood, foam, etc. and/or you can combine them to be used to best satisfy your needs at that specific section of your layout.

Example:  You can also use a base of plywood (good for stability & attaching turnout machines) with 2" foam "glued onto it" as an adhesive with either clear or white caulking.  Styrofoam risers, such as from Woodland Scenics, would work well with this scenario.

Suggestion:  Take a gander at the "cookie-cutter" thread from July 2006...

http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/69925/852513.aspx#852513

The cookie-cutter technique can be combined with the benchwork table construction shown in the photos earlier in this thread, or as shown in this cookie-cutter thread which primarily uses L-girder benchwork.

Cookie-cutter is an easy and economical way to gain track elevation.

In cookie-cutter, the sub-roadbed is cut out from a base material, usually a much larger sheet of plywood, and; a roadbed material such as homasote or cork can be placed between the sub-roadbed and just under the track.  By using wood risers and L-girder benchwork, the initial sub-roadbed (or yard base) base, is cut from the same piece of plywood.

In my case, Conemaugh Road & Traction will be using a combination of L-girder with cookie-cutter benchwork, and foam where appropriate to the specific need.

Remember to first plan what you want to do, and then take a consistent approach to benchwork and materials that best meets what you want to accomplish with your layout.

Midnight Railroader

Homasote is a roadbed. It is like cork strips. Foam is a scenery base. If you place a 2" sheet of foam on your subroadbed, you would then lay homasote on top of that to lift the track higher than the surrounding scenery.

By the way, track affixed with caulk and be pulled up and moved fairly easily.

 

I see. So when people talk about using homasote, it's for roadbed only? They don't cover an entire plywood base with a sheet of homasote?

 Could homasote be laid on top of foam?

feh

Midnight Railroader

Homasote is a roadbed. It is like cork strips. Foam is a scenery base. If you place a 2" sheet of foam on your subroadbed, you would then lay homasote on top of that to lift the track higher than the surrounding scenery.

By the way, track affixed with caulk and be pulled up and moved fairly easily.

 

I see. So when people talk about using homasote, it's for roadbed only? They don't cover an entire plywood base with a sheet of homasote?

 Could homasote be laid on top of foam?

It CAN be laid as a full sheet, but the usual application is to cut it into roadbed-sized strips or curves to elevate the track. Yes, you can lay that on top of foam, if you wish.

feh

I see. So when people talk about using homasote, it's for roadbed only? They don't cover an entire plywood base with a sheet of homasote?

 Some people do use it for road bed only, some will cover the entire bench with the stuff and some people will do both.

 Everyone will here will have what they think is the best way. You will have to read, think and pick what is best for you and your son.

              Cuda Ken

 My layout is built very similar to Mister Beasly's.
I used the same frameup construction and 2 inch foam, and to facilitate moving mine , I bolted my legs on(2 bolts on each leg) , so they can be easily removed and put back on.I used screw type leveling pads on the bottoms of my legs, and a basic level to level my layout.Mine is made up of (3) six foot by eight foot tables, bolted together, so my layout is 6 feet by 24 feet, and expandable in the future.
It is strong ,lightweight, can easily be moved elsewhere if ever necessary.I used Woodland Scenics foam trackbed and grey latex caulk to fasten the track to the roadbed.
Some people like cork, some of us like the foam roadbed.It's a matter of personal preference.
Mine is in my basement, and if I ever were to move or move my layout, I simply can take the loose things off the layout, unbolt the table joiners and legs on it, turn the tables up on their side and two guys can easily carry it up the staircase.
If you use plywood or homasote , keep in mind it will be heavier and more difficult to move around or relocate later.
Like Mister Beasly said, the foam base lends itself to scenery options.

 

TheK4Kid

 Not necessarily.  There is the cookie cutter approach to grades.  Basically you saber saw a track sized piece loose from the main board and bend it up, or down, as required.  Or, you make a track width piece of homasote and support it with blocks of pine/plywood/whatever. 

  If you do grades, I would recommend keeping the grade down to 2%.  Steeper grades give the trains all sorts of trouble.  If you need enough rise to allow one track to go over another, your need about 3  inch clearance (rail head to bottom of overrunning track) in HO.  To rise 3 inches at 2%, it's going to take 50 times 3  inches ( 150 inches or 12 feet) of grade to get high enough. That's one side plus one end of a 4*8.

  Also, you need to take care to ease into a grade. You have to go from level (0%) to just barely rising (.0.5%) to halfway there (1%) to all the way there (2%) over a distance of a foot or more.  If you go from 0% to 2% all at once, the cars and couplers will scrape the track.  

 

 

 

>>]Homasote is a roadbed. It is like cork strips. Foam is a scenery base. If you place a 2" sheet of foam >>on your subroadbed, you would then lay homasote on top of that to lift the track higher than the >>surrounding scenery.

 

 You can buy road bed made from homasote.   But homasote is a 4*8 sheet of material coming from the lumber yard.  You can do a 4*8 layout with just one sheet of homasote.  Since homasote is soft and will sag over time, you want to back it up with something, say 1/4" plywood.

feh

Since this is being built in his room, it needs to be free standing, and hopefully, could be removed from the room without completely taking everything apart. Thus, I don't want to use grid construction.

 What options does that leave me for creating a layout with topography? I think I've seen or read that I could use foam on top of a flat surface; is that the way to go? Are there any online resources for tips or instructions for building such a layout? 

Recently I purchased the Kalmbach publication "An HO Railroad from Start to Finish" as a Christmas present for a friend of my son's who is into trains,  He was also struggling with planning his first real layout. This publication outlined a technique for building an ultra-light layout using foam-core material where the supporting 1 X 2 frame is glued directly to the underside of the foam base.  The layout itself sets on a set of pillars made from cardboard cartons, instead of legs.  You might check your local hobby shop and see if they have a copy.  I have never actually used this approach, so I'm not sure how it might hold up over time.    

"hopefully, could be removed from the room without completely taking everything apart."

Not many bedrooms have doors and halls outside wide enough to get a 4' x 8' x however-tall-it-is layout out in one piece.

One possibility is to build something smaller, quite reasonable in N scale.

Another is to build a two or more piece top that can be unscrewed from its legs; for example, two separable 2' x 8' (or 4' x 4') sections may be able to be removed from the room.  Track, roadbed, wiring, scenery and everything else must be easy to separate, and that's best arranged when you're building it not when you want to move it.

Also be careful of dust.  Sawdust, plaster dust, foam dust, homasote dust are all harmful to breathe especially for the length of time a kid will spend in a bedroom.  Either cover the bed etc. during each construction session and vacuum up after, or do the dirty parts of the building elsewhere then move it to the bedroom.

dstarr

>>]Homasote is a roadbed. It is like cork strips. Foam is a scenery base. If you place a 2" sheet of foam >>on your subroadbed, you would then lay homasote on top of that to lift the track higher than the >>surrounding scenery.

 

 You can buy road bed made from homasote.   But homasote is a 4*8 sheet of material coming from the lumber yard.  You can do a 4*8 layout with just one sheet of homasote.  Since homasote is soft and will sag over time, you want to back it up with something, say 1/4" plywood.

The only reason to use homasote is as a roadbed. There's no point in trying to use it as a platform (or subroadbed) or to cover a sheet of plywood.

You latex caulk the track TO the foam or you can glue the CORK ROADBED to the FOAM and THEN lay track with small spikes TO THE Cork Roadbed. However.

If your environment has swings in room temperature, humidity and other problems, certain glues or adhesives will NOT work well and heave your track out of alignment.

If you examine a recent post I made with photos, you can see clearly I allow my Kato unitrack to float on it's birch under surface pending scenery work and final electrical work. Eventually that track will have some sort of safe adhesive in small amounts to encourage it to stay in place. But because I have wild swings where I live in winter to summer there is going to be some "Floating" going on. However by and large such floating is by and large restricted to the track joints now as the scenery grows around the rails in the form of foam as a top layer with spackling and other materials to fill in gaps.

If you use Homsote, stagger your joints in layers AWAY from your track joints and then nail them rails down but good. Always follow up your work with a track gauge, sharp mark one eyeball and run a fingernail along the rails looking for flaws, kinks or errors in your spiking.

Cookie cutter is another good method, just dont try to make em too steep. Test your grades with a peice of flex track and your longest picky rolling stock and engine to make sure you dont scrape starting up or see-saw coming over the top. Or worse... hang the engine like laundry on the pilot and trailing truck at the bottom and scrape bottoms of heavy weight passenger cars coming over the top.