General Discussion

K. P. Harrier:

Will the Colton Flyover effort end up wrecked too?

Wrecked, I dunno. Be sure to check out your taxpayer dollars in action (sigh) at the project website here. Looks like they have three options still on the table, not including 'do nothing'.

K.P., stay cool this weekend. Glad to see that you're back in good health.

For what it's worth, I've seen reports that Estrella -- Maricopa East has now been double tracked.  Confirmation would be appreciated.  Whether this double tracking includes the scene of the fire is unknown, since I have no easy way to get out there and eyeball it firsthand.

K. P. Harrier:

The whole thing is reminiscent of 1882, when the SAME site saw Southern Pacific (a predecessor to the current UP) park railcars over a would-be crossing  by California Southern (a Santa Fe predecessor), and stationed armed guards thereat.  That standoff was only overcome by law enforcement action that allowed CS to finally lay a diamond for crossing the SP.  The present standoff, if we have correctly identified the issue, likewise may be won ultimate by the California Southern successor, BNSF Railway, based on a never superseded PREVIOUS agreement, UNLESS that previous agreement had been superseded by mutual agreement.  But, we may never know, because it seems neither railroad is legally obligated to even build a flyover!  But, it is very difficult to imagine how anyone could just walk away from $97 million offered to them!

Question.  Is this crossing used by Metrolink? If so why can't US stimulus money make up the difference? Any thoughts?

The area of the fire was between Maricopa and Casa Grande. No, it has not been double tracked yet. The bridges are in place, but the physical rails have not been layed, at least in that area. I am unsure if track has been layed closer to Casa Grande. I heve not driven out that was in a while. 

Here is a shot of the construction in Maricopa.

This was shot a few weeks back. The shot is facing east looking at 347 and the rail crossing.

There are still a few logisitic issues regarding the timing of construction at this crossing. it will need to be heavily coordinated as this is the main route through maricopa and will affect all traffic, including police fire and abulance trafic.

I don't have a set date yet for this portion of the double track operation here.

 Photo by Howard WaGGner (c) 85239 Photography

MikeF90 (7-22):

Thanks for your kind words.

Your post and its inquiries were such a mouthful and so deep in depth that it took me several days to figure everything out … But, the challenge was fun and rewarding … Thanks!

Your conjectured track diagram was great!  I correlated it to the previously posted photo below:

For lack of a simpler way to quickly identify the tracks and signals on the above westward looking photo, a left to right “A” to “D” approach is used herein.  I would encourage you to COMPARE the lower “B” signal head to the top “C” head vs. the lower “C” head compared to the top “B” head …

A backside view of the above:  “A” is on the right, “D” is on the left

While we are discussing that east signal bridge west of Temple Ave., I’ve concluded that the “missing” TWO-bulb lower “A” head is probably currently being used on an old mast in the downtown Pomona area, SUCH AS on the background right of center mast below (but not necessarily that particular lower head, though it could be)

You asked about a possible crossover(s) BETWEEN Humane Way and [CP] OAK.  I don’t anticipate any.

Its funny YOU brought up Elephant Hill, the south side hill between the 57 Freeway and Humane Way.  Just a few weeks ago while in that area I was pondering how nice it would be get some close-up photos of the Elephant Hill area track construction, but I was focused on other things at the time.  There are some “tricks” of the photographic trade that could possibly be employed to pull off obtaining such hard to get photos on private property.  When I have more time, I might just try some of those tricks …

Concerning both the (1) [CP] OAK / [CP] HAMILTON and (2) [CP] RESERVOIR / [CP] WO TOWER (by San Antonio Ave.) areas:  I’m inclined to believe that there will be only TWO great CP’s in the downtown Pomona area, and NOT six CP’s as presently.  Each new CP will encompass BOTH the SP and LA&SL sides, and probably start eastwardly in the present [CP] OAK area.

The below previously shown eastward dawn photo shows [CP] ROSELAWN in the distance from the Highway 71 overpass, taken a few months ago.  As stated previously, the CP probably is on borrowed time, as it would not fall within the limits suggested one paragraph above.  The rightmost, not-in-service yet, new track appears to go past [CP] ROSELAWN and curve around to the right in the distance.

The Pomona Metrolink station area is not as bad as it first appears.  This forumist believes the present south side commuter stop will continue to be the PRIMARY stop (see the bottom left of the previously posted photo below).  Sometime in the future, I believe that the presently unlade “mystery” track will be for initiating overnight parking of commuter trains.  The north side stop might be available for future Metrolink “meets.”  As an example, an eastbound Metrolink could stop on the north side, load and unload passengers, and depart eastwardly.  It would get a red signal at the present [CP] RESEVOIR / [CP] WO TOWER area.  A westbound Metrolink would then pass, and stop at the south side station stop.  It should be noted that the north platform would now be clear of patrons, closed, and gate to it locked.  The eastbound train would get a red over green, cross back over to the LA&SL side, and head east to Riverside.  The westbound Metrolink, after the station stop, would then head west to Los Angeles.  And, everything would be cool … As I vaguely recall, there is an underpass walkway too in addition to the overpass walkway, but neither really has a significant bearing on the above description in this paragraph.

You asked about the new south side Los Angeles Sub main and when it might be “cut in.”  The only timing aspects I know about are that (1) the whole project should be completed by the end of fall 2009, and (2) for that track to be put in service the missing signal head mentioned above would need to be found.  If it is in fact presently in use in downtown Pomona somewhere, to free up the head new track work there would have to be completed and put in service first.

It is hoped all this satisfactorily addresses your inquiries.

Take care,

K.P.

blue streak 1:

Question.  Is this crossing used by Metrolink? If so why can't US stimulus money make up the difference? Any thoughts?

Only four Metrolink trains use the crossing on weekdays, although more slots will be needed when their new layover facility is built. IMO neither Metrolink nor Amtrak has enough 'skin' in the game to justify the public dollars to be spent.

OTOH the economically challenged and environmentally impacted city of Colton won't be happy without an undercrossing. They even published a rebuttal to a typically short sided op-ed piece in the San Bernardino Sun. I hope they get their wish!

Hi K.P, thanks for your lengthy reply. I just reviewed your post a few pages ago and noticed a few things more.

- It's not clear to me how the new signal bridges next to Humane Way and Park Ave. will be used, we'll have to wait and see. BTW how do you know 'which way' the bridge is 'facing' when all heads are turned sideways?

- The new turnout positioned near CP Oak could allow the new LA sub main to be laid and connected with provision for extending a new main east. Another pic showed the 'pocket' track (near the new Park Ave signal bridge) to be disconnected, presumably with the same purpose. IMO ties and rails may be positioned east of CP Oak but nothing else will happen soon (not part of the ACE fourth main miniproject).

Possible track layout near CP Oak:

                              /--- existing LA sub #1 --

- Existing LA sub main --/--/--- future new main -------

- New LA sub main -----/------- existing LA sub #2 -----

Hmmm, we're missing a couple of turnouts.....  

- The downtown Pomona station has handicapped ramps on the south platform and the north side of the middle platform. A new LA sub main will require a new ramp on the south side of the middle platform, no big deal. I should be in the area next month to check out the 'possible' pedestrian undercrossing; if it doesn't exist this area is a tragedy and a lawsuit still waiting to happen.

- We'll have to agree to disagree on the Metrolink 'layover' track. I have not heard of any new service that would require this. Unless it was a mid-day only track it would require some Serious security to prevent tagging.

MikeF90:

...OTOH the economically challenged and environmentally impacted city of Colton won't be happy without an undercrossing. They even published a rebuttal to a typically short sided op-ed piece in the San Bernardino Sun: http://www.ci.colton.ca.us/Documents/CC/Press/Bridge%20Over%20Troubled%20Waters%20Response_FINAL.pdf  I hope they get their wish!

The Colton proposal reminds me of the CTA extension to River Road before going all the way to O'Hare.  A much more expensive subway under I-90 at East River Rd was proposed, including temporary detour lanes.  This was proposed initially as a worst case scenario for estimating costs(?) according to the City's engineer.  By the time this got to public hearings after final engineering, the claim was that an elevated viaduct and trains, none of which having visible collision damage as do many autos and trucks, would be an eyesore that could be avoided with the more costly tunnel.

If you even have time to kill waiting for a connection at O'Hare, take the Blue Line two stops east to the Cumberland station just east of the tunnel.  If you have more time, go farther east to Jefferson Park or all the way downtown.  You can see stations from every era if you go downtown.  Ride the Airport Transit System and consider what rebuilt L stations should look like in the future IMHO.  Change a few dimensions and Metrolink stations could be rebuilt too - with air-conditioning for the 110-degree days!

Reply Catch-Ups

HarveyK400 (7-21):

That was an interesting idea about "take siding" indications.

There are three signal locations in the Indio area that I've seen where sort of DUPLICATING lower single-lamp heads are used.  Two of those locations have NO switches associated with them.  On my last visit to Indio, I was more focused on staying cool in the 110 degree heat than documenting those signals.  Hopefully, one of these days I'll get a real early morning start, when it is cool, and document those switchless lower heads ...

Mallardisme (7-23):

My guess is you were attracted to the forum because of so many hits from the forum to your great bridge fire photos on the Internet ...

Whether or not that is so, welcome to the forum!

Billio (7-24):

Yes, I too would love to see a photo(s) of the new interlocking signals at Highway 347 in Maricopa

Anybody out there with a digital camera?

Blue Streak 1 (7-25):

Metrolink DOES use the crossing, though not much.  It is over the BNSF, not the UP.

Anything short of Uncle Sam totally funding the Colton Flyover, it seems that with all other options someone will cry foul!

Desertdog (7-25):

Great update!  Where was your camera?

I am curious what is taking place at the new CP SP917 on the west side of Casa Grande.  The new control point box there should be in place by now.  You may recall, I theorized previously that only holding signals would be placed there.

You may recall, too, that I thought a double-crossover would be put in around Ethington Rd. by M.P. 915.  I no longer think that is viable, because in studying aerials, it looks like there is a wide land area graded about two miles to the west, probably around M.P. 913.  The new [CP] EAST MARICOPA likewise has such a wider area graded in aerials.

MikeF90 (7-26):

Let us know what you uncover on your Pomona visit in the future.

You could very well be right in your theories as opposed to my theories.  The whole present thing around the Metrolink station stop doesn't quite make sense, at least to me.  When you visit Pomona, maybe you will see something that I didn't catch.  Much of the Los Angeles-Riverside LA&SL line is two-tracked now, with only small gaps here and there.  Many Sunset Route through-trains are rerouted to the LA&SL between Pomona, Riverside, and Colton.  You may recall that at least one underpass in Pomona would need to be bridged if the mystery Pomona track continued eastward over one of those single-track gaps.  Railroad west of Cajon Pass, BNSF found a somewhat novel way to bridge over such an opening.  Maybe that could be done in Pomona.  Hopefully, I will be able to provide a photo of what BNSF did sometime in the future ...

You asked about the new signal bridge in Pomona and how one could tell which way the not-in-service yet signal heads would eventually face.  Below is an extreme blowup of the signal bridge in downtown Pomona.  There is a railing opening in the direction that the head will face, east, or toward the photo right ... But, when one first sees the signal bridge in person, it is overwhelming ... until one sees such finer details as the railing opening

About the two-track grading width around Elephant Hill in Pomona ... Some grading here and there is for access roads.  In the photo below, taken in April 2008 last year by Rio Bravo Road west of Maricopa, AZ, note the wide right-of-way width and the far left culvert.  When I was there a few months ago, I don't recall a three-track grade crossing.  So, the extra wide culvert bridge was likely for an access road in addition to the two-tracks.  But yet, some culvert bridges were only wide enough for two-tracks and NOT an access road.  So, what you saw in the Elephant Hill area may have been for a fourth track AND an access road, but I don't know.

Take care, everyone.

K.P.

K.P.,

My camera stayed safely in the car, as did I.   We were chased by a monsoon storm all the way back from Tucson.

On a drier, cooler day I will make my way back down to Maricopa / Casa Grande to take a look at CP SP917 and review the situation at Ethington Rd.

Keep the California updates coming.  I railfan at Beaumont Hill and the Palm Springs area fairly often.  West Colton is usually just a "drive by" because of traffic.

Cheers, 

John Timm

"Great update!  Where was your camera?

I am curious what is taking place at the new CP SP917 on the west side of Casa Grande.  The new control point box there should be in place by now.  You may recall, I theorized previously that only holding signals would be placed there.

You may recall, too, that I thought a double-crossover would be put in around Ethington Rd. by M.P. 915.  I no longer think that is viable, because in studying aerials, it looks like there is a wide land area graded about two miles to the west, probably around M.P. 913.  The new [CP] EAST MARICOPA likewise has such a wider area graded in aerials."

Bad Omen for Railfans

Toward the turn of the millennium, Union Pacific began upgrading the signals and relocating crossovers on the already two-tracked west slope of Beaumont Hill (in California); and thereafter started laying a second main eastward down the east slope to Indio.  With the recent upgrading at West Colton Yard, the Sunset Route is now two-tracks from [CP] SIERRA in Fontana to the east switch THERMAL (east of Indio).  Railfans that are checking all this out may be surprised at what they NOW encounter in San Timoteo Canyon on the west slope of Beaumont Hill.  While it was briefly mentioned previously in this topic, the following will elaborate and put a “bad omen” twist to a great area.

The once quiet and lonely San Timoteo Canyon Road west of downtown Beaumont has changed dramatically with the proliferation of new housing.  The most alarming is no parking signs and the bike paths on the roadway.  The below east facing photo was taken in the vicinity of M.P. 560.

The new divided four-lane highway / bike paths is a beautify highway with residences looking down onto the railroad.  But, railbuffs now cannot just park and take photos of passing trains.

The old HINDA crossovers were just beyond the distant curve in the tracks.  The ‘not feasible to park’ continues in the distance.  Note the heat distorted view of the right telephone pole

ONLY the north side of San Timoteo Canyon Road has a sidewalk!  But, such is only good for joggers and distance walkers as there still is no parking permitted

Thus, camera toting railfans are in for a surprise if they have not been to or seen San Timoteo Canyon Road of late.

Union Pacific reportedly has had pilferage problems from thieves raiding stopped trains in this area.  Special agents have, in the past, even harassed railfans that parked trackside on the old two lane road, which is an ironic twist because railfans are the very ones most likely to recognize and quickly report thievery!  It is unknown if the railroad had input or donated money toward the present roadway design, but things are definitely not the same for railfans.

I guess one solution may be to take along a bike if you need to park some distance away.

I just returned from a rail fanning tirip to SoCal. I was in Ontario CA & drove as far west as Mountain Ave & between there Vineyard St (Ontario Airport) there was no evidence of any double tracking to be done. There was no grading going on nor did I see any survey stacks showing where the grading should be done. In driving from Ontario to Colton where ever you can see the tracks from I10 I also saw no double tracking taking place

BTW they are rebuilding the double diamond @ Colton. They are erecting it from scratch as there are pieces of the new diamond waiting to be put together on the Valley Blvd side.