General Discussion (Model Railroader)

ChrisNH wrote:

Some things are harder or impossible in n-scale like installing sound in your locomotive or spiking your own rail.  Chris

Harder, yes. Impossible?  No.  Over on another board (I can't say which one because of forum rules) there's a guy laying Code 25 rail in N.  It's true! 

And David Houston just installed a mini Tsunami in the N scale Model Power 4-4-0.  This is a tiny tender, but he did it!  Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwS5uqWeGA

Sound in locos is becoming a lot more common in N.  Where HO beats N is that there's a physical size limit to the speaker, which reduces the sound quality in N (not as much bass as HO).

Here's a TCS M1 mini DCC decoder (under the electrical tape) I installed in the boiler of a kitbashed N scale PRR H10sb 2-8-0 I built.  Bear in mind that the outer diameter of the boiler is roughly equivalent to a normal-sized adult's index finger:

Now, if I can fit a normal decoder in the boiler, think about how much room there is in the tender for a sound system.

Dave Vollmer wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwS5uqWeGA

It sounds more like somebody breathing hard and trying to mimic the sounds of a steam engine than the workings of a sound system.

Do all N sound systems sound like this?

jasperofzeal wrote:

Dave Vollmer wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwS5uqWeGA It sounds more like somebody breathing hard and trying to mimic the sounds of a steam engine than the workings of a sound system. Do all N sound systems sound like this?

Why don't you ask him?  You can leave a comment on his video.  I'm sure he'd love the feedback.

Beware of the words always, never and impossible.  All it takes to blow the entire statement is one contrary example, any time, any place.

As for sound in model locomotives, when somebody manages to generate bass like a Norfolk and Western 1:1 scale smoke box, I'll consider it.  (Holding my breath - NOT!)

N scale, being smaller, is somewhat less tolerant of, "Quick and dirty," than is HO, which is less tolerant than O, which...  (I think the breakover comes somewhere around 12:1, or with live steam operation.)  Of course, since we are all master craftspersons(?), that isn't really an issue...

If I was a couple of decades younger (or Arnold Rapido had gotten started a couple of decades sooner) I might be in N scale today.  My commitment to my present scale is a matter of financial reality, not emotional commitment.  (Translation - I have too much money invested in this to change now.)

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in twice-N scale; 1:80, aka HOj)

tomikawaTT wrote:

Beware of the words always, never and impossible.  All it takes to blow the entire statement is one contrary example, any time, any place. As for sound in model locomotives, when somebody manages to generate bass like a Norfolk and Western 1:1 scale smoke box, I'll consider it.  (Holding my breath - NOT!) N scale, being smaller, is somewhat less tolerant of, "Quick and dirty," than is HO, which is less tolerant than O, which...  (I think the breakover comes somewhere around 12:1, or with live steam operation.)  Of course, since we are all master craftspersons(?), that isn't really an issue... If I was a couple of decades younger (or Arnold Rapido had gotten started a couple of decades sooner) I might be in N scale today.  My commitment to my present scale is a matter of financial reality, not emotional commitment.  (Translation - I have too much money invested in this to change now.) Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in twice-N scale; 1:80, aka HOj)

Some 5000 years ago someone important said "we have ALWAYS lived in caves, we will NEVER live in anything else because it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to imagine otherwise."

Roughly 100 years ago, many people thought we have ALWAYS be land based, we will NEVER fly like the birds because it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Just last week I said to myself "I'm ALWAYS going to be in the doghouse, I'll NEVER please my wife, it is just IMPOSSIBLE!"

Ok, the last statement is wrong..................I never actually said that but anyway, sometimes all it takes is the use of words like these to acheive the NEVERs and the IMPOSSIBLEs. Many times at work when they say you CAN"T make it work like that, or something similar, I use that as motivation to show and do what they say CAN'T be done.

It is all in the mind. If there is a physical challenge (as in disability type challenge)  that gets in the way, find a detour. If there is a mental roadblock, get out the map and find another route.

I'm a rabid N scaler, have been for years, but I've experienced enough to realize that different scales offer different advantages.  I don't bother with sound in N scale, not because I think it's a technical impossibility, but because I don't think the effect is worth the cost/benefit ratio.  I have a couple of engines that I've added some details to, but I have a bunch of others still awaiting proper horns, snowplows etc.  While I'll agree, N is less tolerant of sloppy workmanship, it is much more tolerant of the "three feet away" rule.

I run operations on my N scale layout, but I have to say, I really enjoy the ops sessions at the club I belong to, which has a massive HO layout.  We can do long trains, MU lashups, and a wide variety of operations.  I like the feel of the equipment, the mass.  The bigger trains give you a sturdier sound as they cross the bridges.  I do enjoy the sound equipped stuff in HO, too, I think because the sound quality is better.  Steam doesn't look too bad running in HO, and sound helps, but O, and perhaps S, is where steam locomotion is best represented.  In addition to the heft and size of the models, you can really see the details, large and small, of a steam locomotive.  Watching the drivers of an O scale steamer, especially one that's decked out with good weathering, is an experience unto itself.  G scale is fun to watch too, but so much of that is out in the yard, viewed against a backdrop of actual azaleas instead of scale trees, it's hard to appreciate.

Either way, keep on model railroading.  There's something for everyone (to complain about!)

Lee 

Dave Vollmer wrote:

Harder, yes. Impossible?  No.  Over on another board (I can't say which one because of forum rules) there's a guy laying Code 25 rail in N.  It's true!

I put the sound in the "harder" category.. and the hand laid n-scale track I have seen has been soldered on not spiked.. my understanding is the little spikes used to hand lay track create too much of a bump. In any case, my point was that n-scale's small size is both a help and a hinderance.

Chris 

Dave Vollmer wrote:

jasperofzeal wrote:  Dave Vollmer wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwS5uqWeGA It sounds more like somebody breathing hard and trying to mimic the sounds of a steam engine than the workings of a sound system. Do all N sound systems sound like this? Why don't you ask him?  You can leave a comment on his video.  I'm sure he'd love the feedback.

I asked you because you posted the link to the video and you are the unofficial, self-appointed voice of the N scale group here.  I model in HO, so I'm not very versed with N scale sound, or HO sound for that matter.  I'm not losing sleep over the sound thing, I just gave my opinion on how the engine sounded and asked a general question you could've probably answered.

jasperofzeal wrote:

Dave Vollmer wrote:  jasperofzeal wrote:  Dave Vollmer wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwS5uqWeGA It sounds more like somebody breathing hard and trying to mimic the sounds of a steam engine than the workings of a sound system. Do all N sound systems sound like this? Why don't you ask him?  You can leave a comment on his video.  I'm sure he'd love the feedback. I asked you because you posted the link to the video and you are the unofficial, self-appointed voice of the N scale group here.  I model in HO, so I'm not very versed with N scale sound, or HO sound for that matter.  I'm not losing sleep over the sound thing, I just gave my opinion on how the engine sounded and asked a general question you could've probably answered.

Honestly, I'm not exactly thrilled with the quality of N scale sound either, as I mentioned eatlier in the thread.  It all sounds kind of "tinny" to me.  That, again, is a function of the physical size limit of the speaker.  But it's not impossible as was hinted at.

I replied the way I did because I know this guy and he worked very hard to install this sound system and you dismissed it pretty quickly with what sounded to me like a rude comment.  I think it sounds decent given the physical constraints of the tiny tender.  Some N scale sound systems sound a bit deeper (like the PCM E7s) but have larger speakers.

Self-appointed, hmm...  You know, when I was a young Officer Trainee Fourth Class I was taught that the good leader always steps in to fill a leadership vaccuum.  So if I've become the unofficial N scale advocate here in the MR Forums, it was inadvertant; but we are underrepresented, as most N scalers I know have fled for more specialized forums.

You can go to dallasmodelworks.com and use Craigs car card generator..

http://dallasmodelworks.com/interchange/carcard.asp

I think it would be a great help for ops in N scale simply because the numbers and lettering on the cars could be difficult for some to read.  I photographed about 35 of my HO cars, like this..

and printed them on the top of the card.  Makes operating easier!

JaRRell

Dave Vollmer wrote:

Daniel pointed out something critical that I was remiss in emphasizing myself, Chip. Some aspects of N scale operation (for a given size versus HO) can be even more realistic than HO.  Train length, for example.  Even locals on a line like the Pennsy were longer than most HO mainline trains.  You can do a 20-car local in N on a door (I do it all the time!). If you like MUing, your triple-header looks better pulling a 30-car train in N than a 15-car train in HO. Daniel also points out the ability in N (again, for the same space relative to HO) to put more space between towns.  At scale speeds, N scale trains take longer to move between switching locations, extending the op session time. I know I'm wearing out this phrase, and I wish I could remember who first said it to me, but it rings true to my ears:  "HO is for modeling trains; N scale is for modeling railroads." Good luck with whatever you choose.  But at least give it a shot.

15 car in HO? My coal drags tend to be 30 to 70 cars long, I have to use pushers on the grades with trains over (about) 45 cars. (dcc, using a separate throttle for the pushers)

remember I have nothing against N, but I did ask about running quaility, never got an answer, and by the way how much power does and kato N gauge SD70 have vs. a kato HO SD70?

 I've seen N gauge mod layouts and they look great, but I think hearing from someone who runs N would be a better judge than me looking at a layout in a noisy room with 100 + people looking over my shoulder.

sfrailfan wrote:

remember I have nothing against N, but I did ask about running quaility, never got an answer,

N-scale locomotives have come a long way. The pulling power compared to HO in cars seems quite comparable based on reviews I have read. Of course, manufacturer quality varies. I dont think this would be an issue for a user choosing between N and HO, there are plenty of more compelling issues.

There is a caveat to that, though. If you have to remove weight to make room for a decoder or speaker as can happen, especially on older locomotives,  then your traction can be reduced.

Chris

Ugh...

The train length was an example of relative size.  So in your space you could run 60-140 cars in N.

N scale diesels, especially Kato diesels, run just as well as HO ones.  Just as well.  I can say that; I spent 20 years in HO before I switched to N.  So I know both scales.

Katos run well in any scale.

Atlas' new offerings in N are also spectacular, as are the LL/Walthers Proto stuff.  All the examples I've seen or purchased run like fine Swiss watches.  The trick is to stick to the newer stuff.  The pre-1990 stuff is real hit-or-miss.

Steam in N is still iffy, but we have a couple of real winners (the Kato Mike, Spectrum 2-8-0, Athearn/MDC 2-8-0, and some others).  But, with some tinkering, most can be made to run quite well.  Nevertheless, I felt my HO steamers ran better than my N ones, at least in terms of pulling power.

Oh, and there's a heck of a lot more to N scale than just NTrak layouts.

I've kind of been backed into a corner here as the "defense" team for N scale.  Frankly, N scale isn't for everyone, and I wouldn't advocate it for everyone.  If I were still a narrow gauge nut (I used to model the RGS in HOn3 many years ago) I wouldn't be in N.  I'd probably do On30.

But for a guy with no major vision or fine-motor-skill troubles who wants the most railroad for his space, N scale really does offer certain advantages.  And operations in any scale is possible.  N scale may be less forgiving of bad track poorly-balanced rolling stock, but if you do it right, it'll work just fine.

Let me say this, and then I'm essentially done...  Chip's question as to whether operation is possible in N has been answered emphatically.  Yes it is.

Dave Vollmer wrote:

Ugh... The train length was an example of relative size.  So in your space you could run 60-140 cars in N. N scale diesels, especially Kato diesels, run just as well as HO ones.  Just as well.  I can say that; I spent 20 years in HO before I switched to N.  So I know both scales. Katos run well in any scale. Atlas' new offerings in N are also spectacular, as are the LL/Walthers Proto stuff.  All the examples I've seen or purchased run like fine Swiss watches.  The trick is to stick to the newer stuff.  The pre-1990 stuff is real hit-or-miss. Steam in N is still iffy, but we have a couple of real winners (the Kato Mike, Spectrum 2-8-0, Athearn/MDC 2-8-0, and some others).  But, with some tinkering, most can be made to run quite well.  Nevertheless, I felt my HO steamers ran better than my N ones, at least in terms of pulling power. Oh, and there's a heck of a lot more to N scale than just NTrak layouts. I've kind of been backed into a corner here as the "defense" team for N scale.  Frankly, N scale isn't for everyone, and I wouldn't advocate it for everyone.  If I were still a narrow gauge nut (I used to model the RGS in HOn3 many years ago) I wouldn't be in N.  I'd probably do On30. But for a guy with no major vision or fine-motor-skill troubles who wants the most railroad for his space, N scale really does offer certain advantages.  And operations in any scale is possible.  N scale may be less forgiving of bad track poorly-balanced rolling stock, but if you do it right, it'll work just fine. Let me say this, and then I'm essentially done...  Chip's question as to whether operation is possible in N has been answered emphatically.  Yes it is.

I'm not beating up on N, quite the contrary, I'm looking to fund an N gauge home based thing and keep my HO at the club for the same space considerations ya'll have. I just had some of the same type of questions Chip had. But thanks for the insight. Your pre 1990s advice is golden since I'm one of those guys repowering and detailing Athearn diesels from who knows when.

I just want a decent coal drag to run at home. I might even go with a different road since I have that opportunity!

 thanks

Here's a look at a 50-car coal train on my N scale layout....

Coal Train Video 

Lee